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10" Eminence Selection

#21
I have not compared them. The S2012 is what I'd recommend for a small sealed box as I know a lot of people who have used it as a dropin in old Marshall guitar cabs turned bass cabs, and had it work out great.

The basslite in a 1.2cf ported box would be much boomier than the 3012HO. -3db @ 70hz vs. 80hz for the 3012HO, but with a large 2db bump @ 120hz or so.

It'd probably be OK, but not what I'd choose for a small ported box.
 
#23
bobby1781 said:
Alright then, well then I guess the 3012HO will be the best bet since it seems silly to go sealed and leave all that volume on the table for such a minor size/weight difference. 3012HO it is, thanks again!
Click to expand...

Well, to be fair, when you go that small you're losing so much low end that a sealed box doesn't really sacrifice that much - a 3012HO will actually have less relative low end in a 1.2-1.3cf ported (tune to 50hz) box than a sealed basslite in a 1.5cf box.

The difference is the woofer sensitivity gives the 3012HO a roughly 2db advantage down low and more up top.

Cost, sensitivity, power handling - the 3012HO has more of all of these, so it's a matter of how loud you need to get.
 
#25
oh boy... just found WinISD, this is just plain fun!

Is this the software you guys tend to use? I started with the Beta, but also downloaded the Alpha Pro.

if this thing is accurate it looks like i can get all my answers here for box style/size for the drivers and make a better decision with the compromises
 
#29
I have searched... and searched

Everywhere I can find a mention of the PE parameter it is using the drivers RMS wattage...

If I understand this correctly, that makes sense for showing you the maximum SPL the driver could acheive in theory if driven fully.

When comparing drivers with a known amplifier output that would be consistant with any driver I choose (140 watts @ 8ohms) Would it be more realistic to set all the different drivers PE to 140watts as that is all the would actually see?

I have been playing with this software all night and now at work. Seeing the graphs plotted out across many different variables it paints a really clear picture. Lesson 1 Learned: Size matters. Of course I knew that, but to the actual sacrifice it causes almost make me want to scratch the portable box idea and compromise with a larger design that is still relatively light.

Lesson 2: I am asking for your help on this one. I remember when building subwoofer designs for pro car audio competitions, in order to really push that SPL we always ended up with designs that you would never want to hear a song through. Customers always had expectations that were contradictory to their desires. "Hey man I want you to tune that thing low I want the low lows you know?" Me "It is tuned stupid low, trust me it should be around 28hz or so which is not normal" Customer "28? Man I want LOW like 15" That's when I suggest we save money on the box and just screw the woofers to the back and bottom of the seat to shake the crap out of you because that's about all you get from that frequency. Most of the time customers who wanted the "low lows" were really talking about how 50-60hz actually sounds and were confused.

So... I my HEAD I think I need to be as linear as I can to 43hz because that is my range right? Well I guess Linear is relative to everything else I hear and an ear's sensitivity effects it too. Maybe 40hz at -3db from 50hz is actually what I would perceive as linear and if it were flat I would find it too bass heavy and I just don't know any better.

I pluck an open E... my box is tuned a little higher and rolls off way before 40hz say around 55hz In the real world is this actually fine and will still sound good? Do I have a large misunderstanding of required output at that frequency range?

To sum it up:

PE: Use each drivers RMS or use the power they will be getting from the amp?

Port tuning in a smaller box: Quit chasing numbers because in the end of the day you don't hear numbers you hear sounds and pleasing isn't always flat?
 
#30
Look at the "Signal" Tab for the box and put the amount of watts you will be using in there. Then look at the SPL chart, not maximum SPL.

For electric bass, the first harmonic is the most important frequency. So, the E's 41hz or so becomes 82hz in the first harmonic.

A decent design for electric bass aims to be no worse than -3db by 60hz for a 5-string and -3db by 80hz for a 4-string. When I work with drivers, I aim to be -3db by 60hz at the worst, since that will mean in most cases adequate 5-string performance and great 4-string performance.

The reason is:
1) The way electric basses work, more energy is above the fundamental (41hz or so for open E) than is at the fundamental. It's just the nature of the string length and gauge of most basses. Search talkbass for 'waterfall plots'

2) Because of the fletcher munson curves, higher frequencies are more easily heard, so a lower frequency must be louder to compensate. So even if 41hz is the same volume as 82hz from the cabinet, we will have a harder time hearing it.

3) Because of the way our brains process sound, we will usually 'replace' the missing fundamental based on the harmonics. If you play an E0 through your PC speakers you'll get a taste of this.
 
#31
Alright, I attached the parameters screen for the 3012HO just to make sure I am on the right track. I did NOT enter the SPL for the drivers and let WinISD calculate it. I noticed it calculated all of the values lower than Eminence lists on their site. Not sure which to use.

smaller 3012HO box EQ: -1db @ 200Hz -1db @ 350Hz

larger 3012HO box EQ: -1db @ 200Hz -1.2db @ 350Hz

S2012 box EQ: -1db @ 95Hz

No EQ on the sealed

Q-1 for all EQ settings.

I tried to keep all within your guidelines of -3db@60hz.
 

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#33
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Narrowed down to just S2012 vs 3012HO both in vented enclosures.

I realize my box sizes are climbing, but I think I can still manage 35lbs out of the 2.5cu.ft.

3012HO EQ: -1.5db @ 200hz Q2
S2012 EQ: -.8db @ 80hz -.8db @ 100hz Q2

If the real world performs anything like the models, I guess I just need to decide do I trade $100 for .5cu.ft and some weight. It doesn't sound like a lot of money relative to other solutions, but for this project the cost difference would pay for the other materials.
 
#34
Use Arauco 15/32 ply from Lowes - should be able to get 30lbs with a single S2012 in 2.5cf.

That said: I don't think you really need to go over 1.5cf for a 3012HO - it does so well in that small of a box that it's just a shame to make it too much bigger imho :)
 
#35
... and they announce the 3010LF....

I am telling myself to remember the goals of this, light, inexpensive, for practice and jamming with friends... I am just not listening to myself as I wonder about a 10/3.

are the port values trusted in WinISD, it seems to update in realtime to changes I make. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the concept that a 14"x3"x10" vent is tuned the same as 2 3"diameter 3" long ports.

The box is finalized at 2.5cu.ft. tuned to 50hz which gives me a more pleasing curve without any EQ applied. The only bump is a slight 1db around 60hz which works out perfect as the Bass knob on the MB200 is centered on 60hz. I like to keep as few electronics in use as possible, but that's just me.
 
#36
There is a bit of mystery around the calculation of rectangular port lengths in Winisd. I've done a fair bit of searching and asked some questions on the forum. Here are some quotes from Greenboy on the subject:

"Here's what works for me. I get the area above the shelf about right. Then I see what depth WinISD gives me for two ports tuned about where I want it. I call that the Virtual Shelf. I divide that value by 1.5 to arrive at the length of shelf I'll actually use. And the space behind the shelf I calculate and add to the internal volume I'm already working with, because it tends to act a lot like its there based on my experiments and the tuning data I've gotten back from others.

It ends up being tricky at first because you end up adjusting several things each time you adjust one, but after you do it awhile it gets easier."

And, from a different thread:

"Also, "shelf"-style porting uses a cab's outer wall as part of it, so WinISD or WinISD Pro doesn't estimate this correctly. I find that you typically need a shelf that's about 0.66 as deep as what WinISD indicates. So if it says you need 12" of depth to achieve a certain tuning you might actually only need the shelf to be 12" * .66 = 8" deep. Also be aware you don't want the back end of the shelf to get any closer to the inside of the back wall than 3". So if you have 12 inches from the front of the shelf to the inside back wall, the longest the shelf should be is 12"- 3" = 9"."
 
#37
You don't want the back end of the shelf to get any closer to the back wall than the height of the port. That's what I've heard on the subject anyway.

I use this calculator and it seems to come out right (very close to the winisd / 1.5 IIRC)
Link Removed
 
#38
I figured as much to keep the space in the box equal to the front of the port otherwise I feel it would change the velocity and work similar to a car muffler/resonator.

Would it be the end of the world to just use the 2 3" ports? I think it would allow a more compact face as I could squeeze them into the corners.

One thing I have not paid any attention to is the upper frequencies. With all my focus adjusting box tuning for a smooth flat lowend, I am not sure how to predict the upper range.

It seems that the 3012HO handles the upper freq. better than the driver I choose. Any tricks to predict this? I had planned just running the S2012 full range, but perhaps I would be wiser to use a mid. Which of course would bring the cost right up to the 3012HO which of course would make your choice for the 3012HO the smarter decision

rpsands I have this feeling that at the end of this, if end up going with the 3012HO you are going to be smiling over there with a look that says "good boy, he learned my point"
 
#39
bobby1781 said:
... and they announce the 3010LF...
Click to expand...

Hmmm... missed that. [searching]


I am telling myself to remember the goals of this, light, inexpensive, for practice and jamming with friends...
Click to expand...

I've wondered about that. If you weren't already building a 15/6, a 3012HO cab would make more sense to me. Yes, it will make a lot of sound, especially for the size, but I regard it as more of a gigging cab; less of a "light, inexpensive... practice" cab. I suggest that you try modeling a S2010 in a 1cf box. That would be smaller, lighter, and cheaper (also quieter and less versatile) than what you've been considering.
 
#40
As your man says, you always have to come back to considering your original design goals. That considered, if I was you, I'd be looking at the S2010 in a smallish box as previously suggested. For simplicity's sake, I'd likely use a single round port and tune the thing to around 44 Hz. Up here in the Great White North, that driver is about half the price of the 3012. The only question I might have is how loud you need to be. "Loud" is a relative term and, in most cases, depends on how hard your drummer buddy is gonna hit. As your need for volume increases, then the 3012 in a bigger box becomes more attractive.

But.... keep in mind, I'm only looking at Winisd simulations. I haven't actually listened to either driver so can't comment on which sounds nicer in the highs, etc.
 

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