Mr. Foxen
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100 watts tube sufficient?
- Thread starter logdrum
- Start date
What kind of cabs?
I saw Om years ago (a two piece of Al Cisneros from Sleep and a drummer). IIRC Al was running a pair of 4x15's and a pair of 4x12's. I think there was one master Green tube amp and slaved tube power amps for each of the other cabs? There was at least one master and two power amps anyway. Loudest thing I've ever heard. The drummer had an enormous china symbol, and it was close mic'ed and put through the PA to keep up with the rig. So cool.
I use one of those EA cabs for most of my gigs and it does a lot of things very well. You’ll have to determine how much output you need, but they’re capable of doing decent sized gigs.
As others have mentioned it's really dependent on the other musicians and how loud they play.
If you are playing with three people with acoustic guitars, sure 100 W is enough.
The minute you have guitar players with 50 to 100 watts amp and the maturity of a 10 year old, forget it, you will need 200 to 300 watts.
Same thing if the drummer plays with anything bigger than pencils and thinks he's John Bonham reincarnated.
There's nothing worth than practicing for hours, using nice gear and disappearing in the mix because you play with people who crave playing loud (most guitarists unfortunately).
Wizzy's sound great, I use to have one but they are rated 200W and they do not take a lot of power in my experience.
An Ampeg 810 or a Berg NV610 is a whole different matter.
Final thought, if you play outdoors you need more power, space eats up power. If you play small bars, 100 W might be enough.
If you are playing with three people with acoustic guitars, sure 100 W is enough.
The minute you have guitar players with 50 to 100 watts amp and the maturity of a 10 year old, forget it, you will need 200 to 300 watts.
Same thing if the drummer plays with anything bigger than pencils and thinks he's John Bonham reincarnated.
There's nothing worth than practicing for hours, using nice gear and disappearing in the mix because you play with people who crave playing loud (most guitarists unfortunately).
Wizzy's sound great, I use to have one but they are rated 200W and they do not take a lot of power in my experience.
An Ampeg 810 or a Berg NV610 is a whole different matter.
Final thought, if you play outdoors you need more power, space eats up power. If you play small bars, 100 W might be enough.
scotch
It's not rocket science!
- Nov 12, 2006
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How much volume/power/etc all depends on context. If there's professional pa and monitors, yes - 100 watts (or even less) is enough for me. If the gig is smaller and my amp essentially "is the bass pa", then no. Context also matters in terms of your music style and ensemble composition.
You have to know the venue, technical circumstances, and musical expectations to answer these questions! There are no cookie cutter "...is ______ enough" answers.
You have to know the venue, technical circumstances, and musical expectations to answer these questions! There are no cookie cutter "...is ______ enough" answers.
I don't think there's a gig I do smaller than an arena that I couldn't do with a V4B and a 410 not going through the PA. I've played as big as an 800 seat theater not going through PA and a 25w B-15N, too. Our band isn't doom but it's not especially quiet, either. But Scotch is correct...there is no cookie cutter one size fits all answer.
Depends on how loud you want to be. My ampeg v4b seems to break up around the same volume as the drums. If you want clean and all tube the svt is probably the best bet
I tried the V4B before I bought my 300W SVT-CL. Loved the richness and tone but you won't get to particularly high volumes without getting some breakup and overdrive. I suppose that's subjective and depends on how loud you rehearse and play. It definitely didn't stay clean enough at high volumes for me so I went with the SVT.
As a bit of extra information, I demo'd both through and Ampeg 410HLF.
As a bit of extra information, I demo'd both through and Ampeg 410HLF.
The V4B is not very well suited to that cab. Though I do like lots of overdrive.
FWIW, I didn't think it sounded suited to it. I'd only mentioned it to give the OP an idea of what I was playing it through to make my judgement.
Having spent 10 years using a 1200 watt solid state head and a 400 watt tube head, I was very worried about the V4B... Especially being in a punk/ metal band with two ridiculously loud guitar players and heavy hitting thrash drummer...
But the V4b is perfect through 2 4x10 cabs.
At 1/3 Gain and 1/2 Master, I'm blowing them all out of the water, and I still have plenty more room to go. So, against a Marshall and Mesa stack and 20 piece drum set, it's fine without any help.
I played in a lot of gigs with a not so efficient 20w B-15N mic'ed through PA on mid and big stages, and straight to audience in smaller situations, without any issue, even with loud guitars and drums, pushing it just to a warm growling saturation (no overdrive).
now I use a much more efficient and cleaner 115w Trace Elliot Twin Valve combo when I need a more modern and versatile sound (mic'ed if through PA, no D. I. on the Twin) or a powerful 220w Trace Elliot V-Type V4 when I need a more vintage and potentially overdriven sound, from D. I. or mic'ed or stand alone if sufficient in mid gigs.
so after all, I think it all depends on the situations and if you have a good PA, but IMHO having a too powerful tube amp that everyone tells you to take the volume down, can potentially be more problematic than pushing a less powered one to its limit.
now I use a much more efficient and cleaner 115w Trace Elliot Twin Valve combo when I need a more modern and versatile sound (mic'ed if through PA, no D. I. on the Twin) or a powerful 220w Trace Elliot V-Type V4 when I need a more vintage and potentially overdriven sound, from D. I. or mic'ed or stand alone if sufficient in mid gigs.
so after all, I think it all depends on the situations and if you have a good PA, but IMHO having a too powerful tube amp that everyone tells you to take the volume down, can potentially be more problematic than pushing a less powered one to its limit.
The 410HLF is a bit specialized and needs a bit more power to take advantage of.
D
With tube amps it's all about finding one that hits the "sweetspot" at the volume you're actually playing IMO. Much more important than getting lots of watts or a particular brand.
Different 100 watters can have surprisingly different amounts of clean (or dirty) volume available. It depends a lot on which 100w amp we're talking about and also how loud you play and how much dirt you can live with. I love 100w tube amps because I can push them hard enough to sound great at the volumes I typically need. In fact I've sold all of my more powerful amps, with the exception of a DR201. I rarely play venues where more is required and when I do there's usually an SVT available.
But SOME 100 watters are too weak for what I need.
For example the 100 watters I currrently own are:
Early 70s Carlsbro 100TC. This one delivers more than enough CLEAN volume in a LOUD band setting. If I didn't know it was 100w I would have guessed around 200w.
Mid 70s Marshall Superbass. Works great in a typical rock band setting if a little bit of dirt is ok. It sounds absolutely amazing when pushed a little. I'm not talking serious distortion at typical band volumes, just a bit of dirt. The smooth kind that doesn't actually sound distorted in the mix. But it won't be right for all genres. Not one for ultra-deep lows or crisp highs.
Late 70s Bassman 100. Borderline for clean if the band is loud. Ok if the band isn't too loud (and if you like it's scooped sound) but it doesn't sound all that great when pushed into distortion, very edgy, so I'm keeping it mostly as studio amp for other stuff like Rhodes, etc.
Ampeg V4BH (the early 2000s one that looks like an SVT Classic, not the current V4B reissue). This is the weakest 100 watter I've ever tried and is borderline useless in a loud band. Great studio amp though so I've kept it for that reason.
So it really depends...
Different 100 watters can have surprisingly different amounts of clean (or dirty) volume available. It depends a lot on which 100w amp we're talking about and also how loud you play and how much dirt you can live with. I love 100w tube amps because I can push them hard enough to sound great at the volumes I typically need. In fact I've sold all of my more powerful amps, with the exception of a DR201. I rarely play venues where more is required and when I do there's usually an SVT available.
But SOME 100 watters are too weak for what I need.
For example the 100 watters I currrently own are:
Early 70s Carlsbro 100TC. This one delivers more than enough CLEAN volume in a LOUD band setting. If I didn't know it was 100w I would have guessed around 200w.
Mid 70s Marshall Superbass. Works great in a typical rock band setting if a little bit of dirt is ok. It sounds absolutely amazing when pushed a little. I'm not talking serious distortion at typical band volumes, just a bit of dirt. The smooth kind that doesn't actually sound distorted in the mix. But it won't be right for all genres. Not one for ultra-deep lows or crisp highs.
Late 70s Bassman 100. Borderline for clean if the band is loud. Ok if the band isn't too loud (and if you like it's scooped sound) but it doesn't sound all that great when pushed into distortion, very edgy, so I'm keeping it mostly as studio amp for other stuff like Rhodes, etc.
Ampeg V4BH (the early 2000s one that looks like an SVT Classic, not the current V4B reissue). This is the weakest 100 watter I've ever tried and is borderline useless in a loud band. Great studio amp though so I've kept it for that reason.
So it really depends...
Shame on anyone suggesting to convert to class D over a tube amp!
I need to go see if a Carvin T100 is still available at an acquaintance's pawn shop - it needs repair; hopefully nothing serious like a transformer or anything. Last time I was there I tested it and it powered up and received signal (lights flickered with input) but no output. Hopefully something simple.
Normally I play through my church's Mesa 400 and Ampeg pro series fridge, which sounds awesome and gets very loud. My Ampeg B-1r has a 150 watt power section but it's a little quiet - I'm thinking the Carvin might give me what I'm looking for through my 212. Then again, I'm used to the Mesa cranked through that fridge. I should probably adjust my expectations.
Raz
Shame on anyone suggesting to convert to class D over a tube amp!
I need to go see if a Carvin T100 is still available at an acquaintance's pawn shop - it needs repair; hopefully nothing serious like a transformer or anything. Last time I was there I tested it and it powered up and received signal (lights flickered with input) but no output. Hopefully something simple.
Normally I play through my church's Mesa 400 and Ampeg pro series fridge, which sounds awesome and gets very loud. My Ampeg B-1r has a 150 watt power section but it's a little quiet - I'm thinking the Carvin might give me what I'm looking for through my 212. Then again, I'm used to the Mesa cranked through that fridge. I should probably adjust my expectations.
Raz
That must be some rockin' church band. Many places I visited put guitar amps in an amp room and the bass amps are mostly gone. The 400s are sweet.
Well, our sanctuary rig is a SWR Workingman's 15. In that context, my little B-1 would probably be fine. The 400 is in our theater, and I'm in a Christian metal band. We do FFDP, Avenged Sevenfold, and other groups covers. So that Mesa is definitely used to it's fullest potential.
If you are maxing out a 100 watt tube amp you are probably playing too loud. 
