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Double Bass 15" cab vs. 12"

B

BMacBass

May 18, 2010
8
0
Spokane, WA
#1
I'm at the point where I want to change my sound. I do play both EB and DB, but my main concern is my setup for the DB.

Currently I have a Romanian Round Back w/ a Full Circle PU. I am playing through an AG 500SC and EA Wizzy 12. I just cannot get the sound I am looking for (which seems to be a never ending pursuit). I am hoping for a more round, fuller and warmer bottom end while still maintaining clarity throughout the mids. Currently I get PLENTY of mids, and the lows are "ok" when playing with small groups. However, in playing with a big band I feel the depth is just not there (no matter how much I EQ the amp) and the mids get way out of control as the volume goes up, causing the tone coming out to be so far from the upright's natural sound.

My initial thought is to replace the Wizzy 12 and go for a 15" (either a Bag End S12-D or the Eden D115XL). However, I have read tons of comments that 12's work just fine for other upright players with some even saying that 12's are too boomy for them and they prefer 10's. Maybe I should be looking to my amp and not my cab? I also want to eventually replace my cab.

I suppose I have a few questions:
1) what are your thoughts about a 12 vs 15 cab (more specifically to the ones I mentioned...or any others you'd like to comment on)?
2) do you think the tone I am looking for can be produced by the Wizzy 12 and it is my AG 500SC preventing me from that sound?

I also realize it could be my bass, strings (which are red tip spirocore), and other factors. Just trying to narrow it down.

Thanks!
 
#2
Almost no one seems to like 15's for DB. 12's are arguably most common. 10s and 8s have their fans.

The wizzy in an amazing cab. I suspect what you're hearing and not liking with DB is your head. A fine piece of equipment, but not designed for us. If you're not using a pre-amp, you may have an impedience imbalance with that head too. Do some research on the F-deck unit. Might turn things around for you and save you some dough.
 
#3
BMacBass said:
I'm at the point where I want to change my sound. I do play both EB and DB, but my main concern is my setup for the DB.

Currently I have a Romanian Round Back w/ a Full Circle PU. I am playing through an AG 500SC and EA Wizzy 12.

I suppose I have a few questions:
1) what are your thoughts about a 12 vs 15 cab (more specifically to the ones I mentioned...or any others you'd like to comment on)?
2) do you think the tone I am looking for can be produced by the Wizzy 12 and it is my AG 500SC preventing me from that sound?

I also realize it could be my bass, strings (which are red tip spirocore), and other factors. Just trying to narrow it down.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

BMac,
I took a look on the Aguillar website to find the input impedance of the AG 500SC unfortunately they don't list that spec. It's kind of important since piezo pickups need at least a 1 meg ohm input. impedance. My guess is that it's set at 500 k ohm, but I don't know that for sure. If it is, you can easily remedy that with a Buffer Pre amp, like the Fishman Pro Platimum or the HPF Pre. I don't think that the Wizzy 12 is your problem. Different Pre Amp voicing are better for DB. The scooped mid range settings that work well for EB aren't ideal for DB.
Take a look at the voicing for the old GK 200MB vs your amp.

Gallien Krueger 200MB

4 Band EQ
1.active treble control operating at 4.0 kilo-
hertz.

2. active high mid-range control operating at 1.0khz.

3.active low mid-range operating at 250hz.

4. active bass control operating at 60hz.

Agulliar 500SC

Bright: +5dB >4kHz shelving
Treble: +/- 13dB @ 4kHz shelving
High Mid: +/- 14dB @ 800Hz peaking
Low Mid: +/- 14dB @ 400Hz peaking
Bass: +/- 18dB @ 40Hz shelving
Deep: +6dB <100Hz shelving

They are very different approaches to EQ. One is a simple four band, the other has an additional Bright and Deep control that influence the Treble and Bass frequencies. With double bass simpler is usually better.

Ric
 
#7
Thanks for the help! I have so much to learn! I wish there was some sort of class I could take with regards to amps, cabs, etc. I've always avoided digging into depth on those issues. I suppose it's time to grow up.

In my reading I've looked a lot into the Doubler (read almost the entire thread). It sounds like that would be a much better fit for me. Thoughts? Also, would I still need to look into getting a PreAmp (i.e. pro plat)? I appreciate the help!

I am so out of my league when it comes to this stuff....
 
#10
BMacBass said:
In my reading I've looked a lot into the Doubler (read almost the entire thread). It sounds like that would be a much better fit for me. Thoughts? Also, would I still need to look into getting a PreAmp (i.e. pro plat)? I appreciate the help!
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think an EA Doubler would bake your noodle. So would some other things, but with your Wizzy cab, it's a very safe bet. Depending on your needs and the impedance of your cabinet (4 or 8 ohms). A micro head used or new or an older iAmp head could do so as well. If you lived on the other side of the state, I'd be happy to let you demo my iAmp head.

Are you doubling on the same gigs? If not, buy a used head for db and keep your Aggie for electric and use the same cab for both. I like Aguilar equipment. I think it's really well made and can sound great with BG. It kind of makes me sad that they don't cater to us more. Don't dismiss the idea of a preamp to buffer impedance from you pickup. Depending on the sound you're going for, that may be be all it takes. You've got some high end equipment there.

For all of the guys who like their 15" cabs. No disrespect, I'm sure there are good ones and experiences will be different person to person, but I'll bet if we took a simple poll of what DB players on this forum used most, the bell curve would support my original statement, which means nothing if you're happy.

My statement was intended in the context of advising someone with a EA Wizzy 12 and a high end bass guitar amp head who wasn't happy with his DB sound that I didn't think switching to a 15" speaker to be named later was a logical next step to solving the problem he stated.

<EDIT> Looking back at your question. If you're using an amp head that is intended for piezo pickups (which one are you using by the way?) then the pre-amp isn't as important. Some people still like to use them and it's a matter of preference then, but there's not an impedance match problem to be solved. The EA and AI stuff for sure and even things like the little GK combos all are built to accept piezo imput gracefully.
 
#12
TroyK said:
Are you doubling on the same gigs?

<EDIT> Looking back at your question. If you're using an amp head that is intended for piezo pickups (which one are you using by the way?) then the pre-amp isn't as important.
Click to expand...

I am doubling on the same gig quite a bit of the time. Especially when I play with the Bob Curnow Big Band. We do a lot of Metheny arrangements and for many of them I love my fretless on them.

My DB has the Full-Circle on it. Yesterday I bought the Plat Pro. I tried it at home and "whoa!", what a difference! Of course the true test will be using it live (I do very little recording). I'll have a chance to try it Sunday for a jazz quartet session playing a lot of Coltrane tunes (it's a "theme" concert) and then on Monday night as the Curnow band will be recording some of Sierra Music's new publications for 2010.

Thanks for the help!
 
#14
Ric Vice said:
BMac,
I took a look on the Aguillar website to find the input impedance of the AG 500SC unfortunately they don't list that spec. It's kind of important since piezo pickups need at least a 1 meg ohm input. impedance. My guess is that it's set at 500 k ohm, but I don't know that for sure.
Click to expand...

I called Aguilar and they said the input impedance of the AG 500SC is 1 M ohm. However, I still got myself a Plat Pro because I just wasn't happy with the amps sound with my upright. I have always been able to get an "ok" sound, but never that sound that made me smile while playing at louder volumes. So far the Plat Pro has given me the tools needed to really fine tune the sound and tighten it up at louder volumes and still make it sound like an DB.

I now see that the Wizzy is not my problem (although I'd still like to get a 15" down the road sometime, but not in replacement of my Wizzy).
 
#15
BMacBass said:
I called Aguilar and they said the input impedance of the AG 500SC is 1 M ohm. However, I still got myself a Plat Pro because I just wasn't happy with the amps sound with my upright. I have always been able to get an "ok" sound, but never that sound that made me smile while playing at louder volumes. So far the Plat Pro has given me the tools needed to really fine tune the sound and tighten it up at louder volumes and still make it sound like an DB.

I now see that the Wizzy is not my problem (although I'd still like to get a 15" down the road sometime, but not in replacement of my Wizzy).
Click to expand...

Great Idea,
First it's good to know that you don't have to buy a totally new head unless you want to somewhere down the road. The Fishman is a very nice unit and you could even insert it into the effects loop thus bypassing the pre amp. One weird thing I noticed is that the AG500SC
has a simpler set of tone controls than the Aguillar website lists on in own specs. It looks to be a four band EQ that's not what they put in their own specs on the website. Very strange. Do the Bass and Treble knobs pull out?

Ric
 
#17
I own a Wizzy 12 (the M-Line version) and a Bag End S-15. Although I have used the Bag End cab for double bass, I much prefer the Wizzy, which has the added benefit of being quite a bit lighter than the S-15.

On the 12 vs 15 thing in general, I think it just depends on what you like. One of the best players I know uses a custom 1-15 cab with a Walter Woods amp and always gets a wonderful sound.

Another player I know uses the AG 500 for bass guitar but doesn't use it for double bass. I suspect the voicing of the Aguilar amp is part of the problem here. Also the regular Wizzy 1-12 has a pretty strong midrange peak, which can be a bit too much with some amps.
 
#20
Ric Vice said:
BMac,
I took a look on the Aguillar website to find the input impedance of the AG 500SC unfortunately they don't list that spec. It's kind of important since piezo pickups need at least a 1 meg ohm input. impedance. My guess is that it's set at 500 k ohm, but I don't know that for sure.
Click to expand...

I have asked Aguilar this same question. Since I own the AG500 and want to use it for DB. This was their answer:

The input impedance of the AG500 SC is One Megohm, same as the Tone Hammer. In our opinion, this is fine for piezos and is the best for electric bass.
You may want to avoid amps with input impedance of 500, for this use.

edit: sorry, I see that this question was already answered.
 

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