• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

2-5-1 licks

#21
OK, when someone says "use D Dorian for the Dmin7, G Mixolydian for the G7, and C Ionian for the Cmaj7" I find it pointless. That's because those three chords define the key center of C major. So instead of thinking of them as three separate entities, think of them as the key of C. For both soloing and playing bass lines, it's the same thing. The chord tones are your targets. That in NO WAY means you only use chord tones/arpeggios. It means while playing under or over that Dmin7 you're aware that the chord tones are D F A C, and that you're in the key of C. So a solid fundamental bass line will have the chord tones as your primary target notes on the strong beats, and other notes from the C scale as your likely candidates for passing tones.
Click to expand...

I see what youre saying. I, for sure, was taught to use those modes over each chord, and think of it as three separate entities and use your 'expression' in choosing how to align them musically. Now, im saying i agree with this, just saying what i was taught. Id really not known there was another way...yet.

I like that youre choosing to use the key center method instead...as it speaks to me more in a musically supportive (rather than technically correct) way. Even as im typing this...google is returning links about Modal vs Key Center Approach.

I'm off to do some googling...but youre basically saying i should determine the key center of any given progression (entire head or just A part...etc...)...think in that "scale", and try to hit roots and fifths of each chord in the progression? Trying to use the notes with real gravity when you feel necessary? Did i catch that right?

For soloing, after you get to the point where you're comfortable with knowing where the chord tones are and how to negotiate them with some fluidity, forget all this theory crap. That's when you need to put your instrument in its case and LISTEN to the progression over which you're going to solo. Play the progression several times (a lot of several time), and listen to it while thinking about what a good solo should sound like. Then record yourself SINGING that solo over the progression. Only then do you get your instrument out, and learn exactly what you sang. That solo will be your voice's first expression, not your fingers' expression nor your brain's theory. Learn EXACTLY what you sang even if it's weird. Then analyze what you sang. Note where it's chord tones, where it's tones of the parent scale (if any) and where it's chromatic.
Click to expand...

This just blew my mind. I cant speak more strongly about how awesome this is. thank you. :hyper:
 
#23
.....OK, when someone says "use D Dorian for the Dmin7, G Mixolydian for the G7, and C Ionian for the Cmaj7" I find it pointless.
Click to expand...
Never did see the reason for doing this. Only good thing about it is it's easy to teach modes this way. That's known as Relative Modes - tonal center changes and the notes stay the same. Easy to teach, I find it very hard to use during a song.

As I now understand modes my advise is when ever someone tells you to do C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc. run. Melody comes from the tonic scale and chord tones. If you want modes - and there is a place for modal notes - over modal vamps - think of using; Parallel Modes, here the tonal center stays the same and the notes change. I can do that on the run much easier. For example; your in C and want the sound of Lydian. OK Lydian is; C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian OK start on F. But we are not in C we're in D and D has..... I get lost when I use this on the run.

Parallel Modes in a nut shell. We have three Major modes, three minor modes and one diminished mode in any key. Used with the correct chords each does have a unique sound. To get that sound you only have to change one note for the Major and minor mode and two notes for the diminished mode. Now that makes since to me and is easy to teach and use.

Major Scale = 1, 2, 3,.. 4,..5, 6, 7
Ionian = ........1, 2, 3,.. 4,..5, 6, 7 --- same
Lydian = ........1, 2, 3, #4,..5, 6, 7... one note difference
Mixolydian = ..1, 2, 3, . 4,..5, 6, b7 ... one note difference

Natural Minor Scale = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Aeolian =...................1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 --- same
Dorian = ...................1, 2, b3, 4, 5, ..6, b7 --- one note
Phrygian = ................1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 --- one note

Locrian = ..................1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7 --- two notes.

What mood do you want? Aeolian's sad minor sound or Lydian's major dreamy mood? Grab your home scale - Major or natural minor - and change one note. For Aeolian you don't have to change anything just use the natural minor scale. For Lydian use the major scale and sharp the 4th.

Play chord tones over the chord changes.
C = R-3-5
Dm = R-b3-5
Em = R-b3-5
F = R-3-5
G7 = R-3-5-b7
Am = R-b3-5
Bdim = R-b3-b5

Play the Major or natural minor scale for your solo notes. Want to use modes? Change one note. If each mode has a mood how often does a song change it's mood? Surely not with every chord change.

Or use the chord's pentatonic scale for your melody notes.
 
#27
FunkMetalBass said:
2-5-1 licks? I think the issue is that they are cleverly hidden. 2-5-1 is equivalent to a 1-4-5 in the mixolydian. I can't think of anything off-hand. I'm guessing, in mainstream music, anything involving Dm and C, Am and G, or Bm and A will end up having a 2-5-1.
Click to expand...

Wrong.
 
#28
Richard Lindsey said:
The approach JTE describes is actually quite technically correct.
Click to expand...

Oh i didnt mean to imply he wasnt correct, at all! I just meant to imply his method of playing what is correct, stems less from a technical standpoint, and more of a musically expressive standpoint. In my opinion at least. His focus is not on what scale works...but on what key center the tune is being carried by at the time.

I need to brush up on key centers...and how to find them. this seems like something that would take me a good think to figure out...something i surely wont have time for after trading fours. =P

Malcolm...thats another great point. Once i find my method of figuring out the key center of what im playing...i cant wait to apply it.
 
#29
togglehead said:
I need to brush up on key centers...and how to find them. this seems like something that would take me a good think to figure out...something i surely wont have time for after trading fours. =P

Malcolm...thats another great point. Once i find my method of figuring out the key center of what im playing...i cant wait to apply it.
Click to expand...


And we're back to the original topic. ii-V's define the key center.
 
#30
FunkMetalBass said:
2-5-1 licks? I think the issue is that they are cleverly hidden. 2-5-1 is equivalent to a 1-4-5 in the mixolydian. I can't think of anything off-hand. I'm guessing, in mainstream music, anything involving Dm and C, Am and G, or Bm and A will end up having a 2-5-1.
Click to expand...

Cleverly hidden? Hardly. The ii-V-I progression is probably the most ubiquitous chord progression in all of jazz, and it is featured prominently in many other styles as well. Go to this site and pick any song at random, and the odds are 10 to 1 that it will contain at least one ii-V-I progression. In fact, I just went through all 25+ songs that begin with "A" and all of them but two had a ii-V-I somewhere.
 
#31
togglehead said:
Once i find my method of figuring out the key center of what im playing...i cant wait to apply it.
Click to expand...

Finding the key center - easy way is to listen to the director - he/she should say something like; "Next one is Kiss Ole Ann, we'll do it in G".

Another way is to look at the rhythm guitar's fingers and see what chords he is playing. Lot of time the director takes for granted you know what we play that song in and forgets to tell you. Here are a few more things you can do......

If you've got fake chord - see what chord each verse ends with, if a C you key is C -- if an Am you key is Am. That's correct 99% of the time - if every verse starts and ends with a C you can bet the farm you are in C.

None of the above, listen and sound the E string one fret at a time. When what you are doing and what the song is doing sound good together, you've found the tonal center - look at what fret (note) this happened on - that's your key.

You wrote the song with stuff that sounded good and have no idea what key you got it from. List the notes or chords you are using. Put them in alphabetical order, cross out all duplications, then go to your handy dandy scale/chord chart and see which scale or key they all fit into. You may have to do some changing to get them into one specific scale/key. Or just chalk it up to - if it sounds good it's good.

Good luck.
 
#32
MalcolmAmos said:
Finding the key center - easy way is to listen to the director - he/she should say something like; "Next one is Kiss Ole Ann, we'll do it in G".

Another way is to look at the rhythm guitar's fingers and see what chords he is playing.

If you've got fake chord - see what each verse ends with, if a C you key is C -- if an Am you key is Am.

None of the above, listen and sound the E string one fret at a time. When what you are doing and what the song is doing sound good together, you've found the tonal center - look at what fret (note) this happened on - that's your key.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

OH! Oh i know this stuff already...just never gave it a name. I was WAY over thinking it.

Thanks for tolerating this (sorta) hijack.
 
#33
MalcolmAmos said:
Finding the key center - easy way is to listen to the director - he/she should say something like; "Next one is Kiss Ole Ann, we'll do it in G".

Another way is to look at the rhythm guitar's fingers and see what chords he is playing. Lot of time the director takes for granted you know what we play that song in and forgets to tell you. Here are a few more things you can do......

If you've got fake chord - see what chord each verse ends with, if a C you key is C -- if an Am you key is Am. That's correct 99% of the time - if every verse starts and ends with a C you can bet the farm you are in C.

None of the above, listen and sound the E string one fret at a time. When what you are doing and what the song is doing sound good together, you've found the tonal center - look at what fret (note) this happened on - that's your key.

You wrote the song with stuff that sounded good and have no idea what key you got it from. List the notes or chords you are using. Put them in alphabetical order, cross out all duplications, then go to your handy dandy scale/chord chart and see which scale or key they all fit into. You may have to do some changing to get them into one specific scale/key. Or just chalk it up to - if it sounds good it's good.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

Not always. The key center can change, and in lots of standards, it does change. The song might be called in the key of Ab, but it could go through various key centers in the tune.

Look for common resolutions. ii V is one dead give away of a key center. Dmin7 to G7, because of the notes in the chord AND because of the way the chords go together, define a key center of C. Why? Well, look at the chord! Dmin7 is D F A C (don't take my word for it, figure this stuff out for yourself- know WHY it's D F A C, not just that it is). Then look at the G7- it's G B D F. Put 'em together, and you've got C D F G A B C- every note in the key of C except E. How do you know it's E natural instead of Eb? Easy, a key with Eb would also have a Bb in it, and we don't. If the ii V I is there then we even have the E in the C chord.

Lots of songs go through iterations of ii V or ii V I then have a transition to another key center, etc. So it's not always the key the leader calls it in, nor the key of the overall song that you need to know for a key center.

John
 
#34
I get that. Im versed enough in chords to know what intervals are where...and what notes define the chord. i know WHY its D F A C. ;]

I also assumed that the key center may not be the same for the whole tune. lots of standards modulate around. But...i cant just assume every V7 is going to point me back to a new Key center...or, can i? Sorta...
 
#35
togglehead said:
I get that. Im versed enough in chords to know what intervals are where...and what notes define the chord. i know WHY its D F A C. ;]

I also assumed that the key center may not be the same for the whole tune. lots of standards modulate around. But...i cant just assume every V7 is going to point me back to a new Key center...or, can i? Sorta...
Click to expand...

Your right. You can't assume that. And yes the key center changes constantly in some tunes. Sometimes the first and last chord doesn't always give away the overall key (i.e. Just Friends)

If you're playing a jazz gig, the guitarists' left hand may not help you much. They play all sorts of crazy shapes.

There are alot of rules and even more exceptions to the rules. Keep chugging away at those ii-V7-I's in all keys and build on that. You can't learn all this stuff at once. Its a layered process and there's always more to know.
 
#36
OK, I did post this in the other thead because it address the II V I issues so here goes.....

So on a II V I in the key of C maj I get this the first time around....

II V I
DFAC GBDF CEGB


The second time around .......I inverted the II chord to get the V


II V I
DFAC GFDB CEGB



I Belive this is done so the piano player can keep his hands in the same position and still get the V by just inverting the notes in the II chord.

My question is, does this change our approach as a bass player when it comes to that inverted V, i.e will my approach be different when I get to the V chord the on the second pass which is now DFGB vs GBDF on the first pass. shall I say "Well it's' a V chord in the key of C Maj, inverted or not, I will concentrate on using the G to define the root of the chord in both cases"

I know they sound simular but the V chord now has a D root the second time through vs the G as the root the first time.

GBDF vs DFGB.

I hope I explained this correctly, please be patient if I did not but this is the best way that came to mind at the present.
 
#37
I think id still apply JTE's words here...and go with what makes the most harmonic and sonic sense. What does the song call for? Is this a jazz trio? Or are there other instruments that might still be defining the thirds and such?

Theoretically they are the same chord with just a different inversion...as you said. But, if the inversion isnt changing the feel or tonality of the tune...then keep truckin just the same. Just thoughts.
 
#38
togglehead said:
I also assumed that the key center may not be the same for the whole tune. lots of standards modulate around. But...i cant just assume every V7 is going to point me back to a new Key center...or, can i? Sorta...
Click to expand...

If you have V7 in the original key, it will (as JTE clearly points out) always create the expectation of resolving to the tonic (I). But some composers like to toy with this and move to a iii or vi, or even back to a ii instead.

On the other hand, any chord in the original key might - if the composer wishes to surprise us - turn out to be V7 in a new key. If, in the original key there's no candidate chord to serve as V7 for a new key, the composer might pick a chord that can support one of the other harmonic functions in the new key, like ii or iv, followed by V7 in the new key and - perhaps - resolving to I in the new key.
 
#39
Chris K said:
If you have V7 in the original key, it will (as JTE clearly points out) always create the expectation of resolving to the tonic (I). But some composers like to toy with this and move to a iii or vi, or even back to a ii instead.

On the other hand, any chord in the original key might - if the composer wishes to surprise us - turn out to be V7 in a new key. If, in the original key there's no candidate chord to serve as V7 for a new key, the composer might pick a chord that can support one of the other harmonic functions in the new key, like ii or iv, followed by V7 in the new key and - perhaps - resolving to I in the new key.
Click to expand...

For example...a deceptive cadence?

I think i see what youre saying. In other words...expect a dominant 7 (not necessarily a V7) to resolve to its I...unless otherwise indicated by the OBVIOUS tonality changes.

Of course...this all assuming we've had the chance to peruse the lead sheet before actually playing live! hehe.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back