2" vs 2,5" voice coil in new GK CX cabs, what's the difference?

[sideFX]

In the GK site, in the info section for the new 210 and 410 CX cabs it says that the 10s in the 210 have a 2" voice coil whereas the 10s in the 410 cab have 2,5" voice coil.

So what's the difference? Is there a difference in power handling or tone? Thanks!

 

[agedhorse]

The difference is 1/2"

What does the difference mean? It depends on a lot more than the diameter. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

 

[basscooker]

They got a smokin' deal on 2.5" dust covers.

 

[sideFX]

The difference is 1/2"

What does the difference mean? It depends on a lot more than the diameter. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

Could you please elaborate? I'm really interested to know some of the pros & cons!

 

[mmbongo]

I think you're seeing a typo, as they generally use the same 10" speaker in everything they make that has a ceramic speaker.

https://www.gallien-krueger.com/products/10-neo-woofer-32-ohm-plf5e-em55t-97nkd

 

[abarson]

I think you're seeing a typo, as they generally use the same 10" speaker in everything they make that has a ceramic speaker.

https://www.gallien-krueger.com/products/10-neo-woofer-32-ohm-plf5e-em55t-97nkd

+1 as the most likely explanation. I seriously doubt they would build two different speakers for the same application (210 or 410).

 

[sideFX]

+1 as the most likely explanation. I seriously doubt they would build two different speakers for the same application (210 or 410).

Yeah, that would be kinda weird... I guess?? So is this really a typo or not?

 

[sideFX]

anyways, besides the typo, does anyone have any real life experience with these new CX cabs?

Will the 410 be deeper and more "boxy" sounding than the 210? What are the main characteristics of each cab/setup? I already own a 115 Genz Benz Focus cab and an 112 Ashdown MiCab atm. Planning on buying the Genzler Magellan or the GK Legacy 800 head.

 

[sideFX]

I'm leaning more towards the 210 tbh.

 

[basscooker]

Are the 210 and 410 both 8 ohm? The drivers would have to have different impedance. Could be a factor.

 

[Wasnex]

anyways, besides the typo, does anyone have any real life experience with these new CX cabs?

Will the 410 be deeper and more "boxy" sounding than the 210? What are the main characteristics of each cab/setup? I already own a 115 Genz Benz Focus cab and an 112 Ashdown MiCab atm. Planning on buying the Genzler Magellan or the GK Legacy 800 head.

Given same drivers and same tuning, the 410 will have more lows and be louder than the 210.


You get something called acoustic coupling when you add drivers. Essentially you get a bump in sensitivity for frequencies where driver spacing is within about 1/4 wavelength or less. Because wavelengths gets longer as the frequency goes down, this occurs at lower frequencies. If power is held constant, you get 3dB more SPL. If the voltage is held constant (meaning power doubles) you get +6dB.

It's not all good though. At higher frequencies using non-coincident drivers results in off-axis lobing/comb filtering that varies with driver spacing and frequency.

Where the signal from both sound sources comes together close to perfectly in phase, you get summation and a strong lobe. Where the signals come together out of phase, you get cancellation and a null.

 

[agedhorse]

Could you please elaborate? I'm really interested to know some of the pros & cons!

Some significant tonal parameters are governed indirectly by the voice coil properties, some of which are related to the inductance and how the inductance changes with the motion of the coil as the speaker approaches Xmax.

Also, there are significant impacts on how a cone responds to different frequency ranges under high power which come back to what's happening at the neck of the cone, along with the material and processing used. This relates to the distortion harmonics that are produced by the speaker as it's driven hard. Generally (though not always), larger voice coils remain more linear because of how they interface to the neck of the cone.

This is a VERY complicated topic with a lot of gray areas in theory versus the real world.

 

[Thumpin6string]

Some significant tonal parameters are governed indirectly by the voice coil properties, some of which are related to the inductance and how the inductance changes with the motion of the coil as the speaker approaches Xmax.

Also, there are significant impacts on how a cone responds to different frequency ranges under high power which come back to what's happening at the neck of the cone, along with the material and processing used. This relates to the distortion harmonics that are produced by the speaker as it's driven hard. Generally (though not always), larger voice coils remain more linear because of how they interface to the neck of the cone.

This is a VERY complicated topic with a lot of gray areas in theory versus the real world.

So would a good speaker have Merry Xmas?

 

[41Hz To Go]

Given same drivers and same tuning, the 410 will have more lows and be louder than the 210.


You get something called acoustic coupling when you add drivers. Essentially you get a bump in sensitivity for frequencies where driver spacing is within about 1/4 wavelength or less. Because wavelengths gets longer as the frequency goes down, this occurs at lower frequencies. If power is held constant, you get 3dB more SPL. If the voltage is held constant (meaning power doubles) you get +6dB.

It's not all good though. At higher frequencies using non-coincident drivers results in off-axis lobing/comb filtering that varies with driver spacing and frequency.

View attachment 4546718

Where the signal from both sound sources comes together close to perfectly in phase, you get summation and a strong lobe. Where the signals come together out of phase, you get cancellation and a null.

Would the 410 be at it's most efficient stacked vertically?

 

[sideFX]

@Wasnex & @agedhorse thanks for the info!

I think both the GK Legacy & Genzler Magellan heads can go down to 2.7Ω so I was thinking of using both the cabs I already own (112 on top of a 115) plus the CX 210.

That's 3 cabs and since every cab is 8Ω, all 3 connected in parallel (2 of those connected via speakon to the back of the amp, and one daisy-chained to another cab) will result in 2.7Ω.

Or is it a better idea to go for the 410 at 4Ω/8Ω and also use the 115 Genz Benz Focus (8Ω/300W)?

 

[Wasnex]

Would the 410 be at it's most efficient stacked vertically?

Do you mean like this?

IMHO, the best choice involves choosing the preferred compromise.

AFAIK, you will get slightly less benefit from floor coupling with a vertical cab (less lows). This is because each driver is slightly farther from the floor.

The vertical dispersion will be narrowed, and any lobing the occurs will also be along the vertical axis. Horizontal dispersion will be equal to the horizontal dispersion of a single driver.

Vertical alignment is preferred by many. I normally use a 210. I stack it to about waist height and then tilt it back to aim at my head. This gives me the clearest possible sound, but it also reduces the low end a bit. Not everyone likes this sort of sound. Some people prefer place their cab on the floor, so they get stronger lows.

Some relevant articles:
nl082_MAY08 (prosoundtraining.com)
Speaker Placement 101: How to Fight Boundary Interference (arqen.com)

 

[Wasnex]

@Wasnex & @agedhorse thanks for the info!

I think both the GK Legacy & Genzler Magellan heads can go down to 2.7Ω so I was thinking of using both the cabs I already own (112 on top of a 115) plus the CX 210.

That's 3 cabs and since every cab is 8Ω, all 3 connected in parallel (2 of those connected via speakon to the back of the amp, and one daisy-chained to another cab) will result in 2.7Ω.

Or is it a better idea to go for the 410 at 4Ω/8Ω and also use the 115 Genz Benz Focus (8Ω/300W)?

IMHO stick with matching cabs if you can. If not matching, then cabs that are designed to work together. Hopefully if different cabs come from the same product line, they are designed to work together, but there is no guarantee of this. Buying dissimilar cabs from two different companies would generally have the lowest chance working well together.

If you go with a 410 and 210, ideally the 410 will be 4 ohms and the 210 will be 8 ohms, so each driver receives equal power.

It gets a bit more complicated when you are pairing a 410 with a 115. Usually, a 410 will be more efficient and also able to take considerably more power. For example, the CX410 comes in 4 or 8 ohms and is rated for 800W with a 103dB sensitivity rating. The CX115 comes in 8 ohms and is rated for 300W with a rather low 91dB sensitivity rating. For best balance you want both cabs to be 8 ohms. You probably will not hear the 15, and it will siphon power away from the 410.

Assuming two 8 ohms cabs splitting 600W (each cab gets 300W). The 410 will produce about 128dB and the 115 will produce 115dB. This will sum to about 130dB. If you only use the 410 and feed it the entire 600W the SPL is 131dB. So the 410 alone is louder than if you run both cabs.

If you go with a 4 ohm 410 we can bump the total power up to 900W before the 115 hits its 300W power rating: The 410 will receive 600W and the 115 will receive 300W. The 410 will produce 131dB and the 115 will produce 115dB. This will sum to about 132dB. If you give the 410 the full 800W it is rated for, calculated SPL is 132dB.

Hopefully you get the idea for why it's not generally a good idea to pair a 410 and 115.

I used these online calculators:
Watts to dBm conversion calculator (rapidtables.com)
Total dB level adding of coherent correlated sound sources combining decibels or SPL sound pressure level audio logarithmic decibel scale loudspeaker add signal noise levels incoherent noncoherentt - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

 

[Speakz]

In answering the question about how they sound I would say "very nice". They work well with the Legacy 500 I have and sound like what I would call the signature GK RB style tone but have different voicings if you prefer the MB tone (as I know it but you may hear it differently) tight deep lows but with nice mid growl vs the GK MB150 combos which I feel are clearer and possibly more mid scooped. I own the CX410 and 210 as well as the 115 but I prefer the 210 and 410. They sound awesome together though I rarely have call to use them these days except for fun in the basement. They're as was described above in that the 410 can get great deep lows but is still tight and punchy how I run it at around half of the speakers rated power. The 210 is a little more low mid centric and not as extended in the lows. The crossover is perfect when going from lows to highs it's very smooth with no issues. The two cabs work very well together. the 410 is 4ohm and 210 8ohm so each speaker sees about 75watts. You can easily dial in punchy tone with burpy mids and GK signature growl. If you want the GK high end you can definitely get that with these cabs though I tend to dial the treble back to 9 o'clock and it's perfect for me. What I like about the legacy head with the CX cabs is I can get what seems similar to the old acoustic 360 sound from the 70's. I really love Aston "Family Man" Barrett's tone with those amps and similar to Jaco's fusion tone. Before the pandemic I was playing Madeski, Martin, and Wood as well as Weather report, jazz standards... Grateful Dead etc... and it does all of that well.

I've tried pairing the 115 with the 210 but I haven't had as much success getting the EQ right.

 

[sideFX]

Wow! Very thorough and detailed explanation, thank you so much @Wasnex!

 

[sideFX]

@Speakz thank you for your input!! Much appreciated! Could you explain a bit more why the 115 doesn't do the trick for you? Is it significantly weaker in output and a mismatch with the 210 and/or 410?