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2x15 or 6x10?

#61
With all the audio technology that being applied to bass cabinet design, I expect that we will see 15's continue to pick up converts.

They definitely dont sound like that god-forsaken Woodson that I played through back in the day.

If you love the tone and dispersion of the 15's, and like the way that you sit in the mix, it's a no brainer.

I live and die by 15's and frankly, dont miss 10's one bit.

AVRI.jpg
 
#63
I don't get the whoel "10s are punchier than 15s" thing.
I've always found 4x10 and 8x10 cabs to be exactly not punchy. So many drivers means so many points sources, all with different distances to your ear.
The bottom 10 on an 8x10 will be a foot or so farther away from you than the top one.
I think this makes the 8x10/4x10 rigs just sound more blurry.
2x15 cab just has two point sources in a vertical (usually) arrangement. So you get pretty good dispersion with only a little of that time arrival blur.

As far as 15" cabs being too bassy. I have completely fallen in that hole.
You think you have this great bass sound at the practice spot, all low end. Leaves lots of room for the guitars. But that low end just doesnt project in larger rooms.
So there is surely a benefit to being conservative with the low end when you are using a 15" cabs.
However I love how midrange comes through on 15" drivers. Not all 15"s sound great in the midrange. But the EV, JBL and most Eminence ones I have tried do.
 
#64
Poor ol' Bill Fitzmaurice wore himself out trying to point out the simple fact that SPEAKER SIZE ALONE DOES NOT DETERMINE ANYTHING. 15's don't have a 'sound' per se' and either do 10's...you can get just as much low end out of either, but as a rule the 15's will do it louder. I have a 8" subwoofer in my home stereo and my 15 year old Siberian Husky hates it :)

There are tons of different model 10" speakers and 15" speakers...some you will love and some you will hate, and it aint because of their size. The cab design that houses the speakers is super critical to what the speakers will actually sound like.

I think if there's a reason that lots of folks prefer 215 cabs over a 410, 610, 810 type cab is (assuming we're talking about well designed cabs with great drivers) two 15" speakers stacked vertically is a more efficient way to transfer sound than a bunch of speakers clustered together. There will be way less comb filtering (phase issues) meaning the 15's will cut through and disperse into the room more consistently than the clustered 10's. That's not even a matter of opinion since it's pretty basic science. This doesn't mean someone can't or shouldn't love their 10" based cabs at all...if you love your sound, you'll play better, and that's all that really matters :)
 
#65
dukeorock said:
Poor ol' Bill Fitzmaurice wore himself out trying to point out the simple fact that SPEAKER SIZE ALONE DOES NOT DETERMINE ANYTHING. 15's don't have a 'sound' per se' and either do 10's...you can get get just as much low end out of either, but as a rule the 15's will do it louder. I have a 8" subwoofer in my home stereo and my 15 year old Siberian Husky hates it :)

There are tons of different model 10" speakers and 15" speakers...some you will love and some you will hate, and it aint because of their size. The cab design that houses the speakers is super critical to what the speakers will actually sound like.

I think if there's a reason that lots of folks prefer 215 cabs over a 410, 610, 810 type cab is (assuming we're talking about well designed cabs with great drivers) two 15" speakers stacked vertically is a more efficient way to transfer sound than a bunch of speakers clustered together. There will be way less comb filtering (phase issues) meaning the 15's will cut through and disperse into the room more consistently than the clustered 10's. That's not even a matter of opinion since it's pretty basic science. This doesn't mean someone can't or shouldn't love their 10" based cabs at all...if you love your sound, you'll play better, and that's all that really matters :)
Click to expand...

+1000 :hyper: IMO, this is on point. Especially about the science vs. opinion.
 
#66
I think my Markbass Traveler 151P cabs do it nicely for 15s. The mids are there. But, the low end is there, too, enough so that even the lows cut through, or are felt distinctly in a mix. Amazing how much more decibels I can get down low with two 15s as opposed to one, and of course, it's more than my 112 can do. here again there can be controversy, though, since there are high-end 12s nowadays that can outperform many 15s in all respects.

I've also read that it is easier to make a larger speaker with long xmax and xlim than a smaller one. Can anyone verify if that's true or not?. I have no idea. All I know is that one of my B&C 15s can take more than my B&C 12 without clanking.
 
#69
dukeorock said:
Poor ol' Bill Fitzmaurice wore himself out trying to point out the simple fact that SPEAKER SIZE ALONE DOES NOT DETERMINE ANYTHING. 15's don't have a 'sound' per se' and either do 10's...you can get just as much low end out of either, but as a rule the 15's will do it louder. I have a 8" subwoofer in my home stereo and my 15 year old Siberian Husky hates it :)

There are tons of different model 10" speakers and 15" speakers...some you will love and some you will hate, and it aint because of their size. The cab design that houses the speakers is super critical to what the speakers will actually sound like.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you are saying that the speaker is irrelevant and the cabinet is the only thing that matters.

I've played through dozens of different 15", 12" and 10" cabs.
Using PA, MI, home stereo and car audio drivers.
It is very true that there is a huge difference in sound between a home stereo 12 and a car audio 12. Yet again a bass guitar 10" and a home stereo 10" will not sound alike at all.
Also a 15" used for PA and a 15" used for car audio will both be optimised for bass response, but sound different. One will certainly be smoother!
However in musical instrument land manufacturers are very conservative. They all play "Me too! Me too!". I can buy 100 flavors of the same thing. Everyone sells "British" influenced guitar cabinets. They either have Celestions or something very like them. Likewise the various 15" cabs out there dont cover a very broad spectrum. Some go lower, some are more controlled or have brighter or darker mids. But overall there is an industry understanding of what fifteens are for. And I think there is a consistent sound in that.
For example, how many non-ported 15" cabs are there?
Not a lot!
 
#70
Calaverasgrande said:
It sounds like you are saying that the speaker is irrelevant and the cabinet is the only thing that matters.
Click to expand...


:eyebrow:

If you re-read what duke wrote, he is saying that different speakers sound different. Be it a difference in diameter, or any other property. It goes farther than that though. You can take a great speaker and put it in a dog $hit cab, and guess what it is going to sound like? You can also take a middle of the road speaker and design a fabulous cab around it, and its going to sound great. Its not the speaker, its not the cab. It is the complete implementation of the design that matters.
 
#71
CL400Peavey said:
:eyebrow:

If you re-read what duke wrote, he is saying that different speakers sound different. Be it a difference in diameter, or any other property. It goes farther than that though. You can take a great speaker and put it in a dog $hit cab, and guess what it is going to sound like? You can also take a middle of the road speaker and design a fabulous cab around it, and its going to sound great. Its not the speaker, its not the cab. It is the complete implementation of the design that matters.
Click to expand...

And a bit further---you can put a great speaker in a great cab, but if they're not designed for each other, guess what...?
 
#73
I guess I'm the odd duck in all this in that I want a 410 AND a 115 stack. I love my old Ampeg BA115 combo, though it is a little muddy. It just has a great fat sound to it. However, I also think my GK rig, a 700RBII and Neo 410, sounds just as good, but in different ways. It's got punch and definition that my Ampeg simply doesn't, as well as ridiculous bottom end. I'm hoping to add a Neo 115 to my stack in the future and have the best of both worlds. And to agree with some of the posters here, the 410 is rated to go deeper than the 115, so speaker size certainly doesn't dictate that at all. The cabs might handle the lows differently, but can't necessarily handle more lows when the speaker size is bigger.

So what do you guys think? Anybody in the same boat as me that really wants/has 10s and 15s in the same rig? I haven't experienced it firsthand, but I'm hoping someday. Sounds like the best of both worlds to me...
 
#74
kleinenenten said:
I guess I'm the odd duck in all this in that I want a 410 AND a 115 stack. I love my old Ampeg BA115 combo, though it is a little muddy. It just has a great fat sound to it. However, I also think my GK rig, a 700RBII and Neo 410, sounds just as good, but in different ways. It's got punch and definition that my Ampeg simply doesn't, as well as ridiculous bottom end. I'm hoping to add a Neo 115 to my stack in the future and have the best of both worlds. And to agree with some of the posters here, the 410 is rated to go deeper than the 115, so speaker size certainly doesn't dictate that at all. The cabs might handle the lows differently, but can't necessarily handle more lows when the speaker size is bigger.

So what do you guys think? Anybody in the same boat as me that really wants/has 10s and 15s in the same rig? I haven't experienced it firsthand, but I'm hoping someday. Sounds like the best of both worlds to me...
Click to expand...

Try before you buy. Mixing speakers like a 410 and a 115 brings a slew of problems, and very few if any positives. The only pairing I recommend for any cab, is a second identical cab. If you like the sound of your 410, get a second identical one.
 
#75
CL400Peavey said:
Try before you buy. Mixing speakers like a 410 and a 115 brings a slew of problems, and very few if any positives. The only pairing I recommend for any cab, is a second identical cab. If you like the sound of your 410, get a second identical one.
Click to expand...

Even cabs made by the same company? That sounds crazy that they wouldn't manufacture cabs to work together in their own line!
 
#76
kleinenenten said:
Even cabs made by the same company? That sounds crazy that they wouldn't manufacture cabs to work together in their own line!
Click to expand...

They dont give a $hit once they have your money.

Here are a few of the problems, as have been laid out exhaustively here.

  • Power handling: The 115 will have about half the power handling of the 410, regardless of manufacturers BS specs. So while the 410 is getting warmed up the 115 is being pushed to its limits, a recipie for destruction.
  • Sensitivity: the 410 will probably be more sensitive, so it sound louder with the same amount of power. It being so much louder will cover up the sounds of distress from you over powering your 115. Also due to the power handling and sensitivity discrepancies you gain little if any max volume by adding the 115.
  • Phasing: here is the biggest deal breaker for me. Both cabs have different frequency responses and act as different sources. This can increase the phasing out in the room, and will introduce dead spots where your bass cuts out.

Matching cabs will be more consistent and be more predictable. You only gain problems mixing.
 
#78
kleinenenten said:
I've heard of phasing before, but what exactly is it? I'm clearly lacking some technical knowledge here... Wouldn't each speaker in a 410 be a different source? Why don't they "phase"?
Click to expand...

They do, but since they are all the same type of source it presents itself as comb filtering. A vertical stack of two 210's has much better dispersion, and the phasing is on the vertical plane. People out in the audience can move around side to side, but ver few are going to change their elevation by 30 feet on a regular basis.

What is happening is the sound waves are interfering with each other. Kind of like if you toss two stones into a calm pond their ripples will spread out and hit each other. The peaks and troughs interact. When two peaks are on top of each other you get a big spike, two troughs equal a dip. The problem is when a trough hits a peak and you get a cancellation.

You can minimize this by matching speakers, and preferable stack them vertically.
 
#79
kleinenenten said:
I guess I'm the odd duck in all this in that I want a 410 AND a 115 stack...
I haven't experienced it firsthand, but I'm hoping someday. Sounds like the best of both worlds to me...
Click to expand...

The best "control" that you might be able to experience would be to utilize a bi-amp situation (such as an LH1000 from Hartke). You could then pump one cab with channel A, the other with channel B . . .
You might be surprized at how each "duck" might benefit from the use of the "balance" knob for differential/potential of each cab . . .
"Best of both worlds" isn't the definition that most would use to describe a GK 700RBII powering a 410 AND a 115 - isn't GK's description of this "bi-amp" as actually a frequency crossover kinda' deal?
 
#80
OK, that makes a bit of sense. I guess now my only question would be this: Wouldn't the two sources playing the same frequency (note) just make that note more audible? Or is it that the two waves collide and basically destroy each other? Thanks for the help!
 

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