That Zawinul tune sounds like 6/8 to me, that's a pretty common groove in some African and Cuban styles.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
3/4 vs. 6/8 (time signatures)
- Thread starter organworthyplayer337
- Start date
In order to better explain my point of that superb Zavinul performance, I've just done some short excerpts with Audacity.
Part 1 - Intro.
From the get-go, the drum kick and the bass clearly establishes 4/4 at around 165BPM.
The bass plays his part with the 8th triplet feel at 165BPM. It's Linley Marthe; therefore, no problems for him.
Now.
Let's check the hi-hat part.
The hi-hat clearly plays in 3/4 at 247BPM (around). It's a two-bar rhythmic pattern on hi-hat with the last quarter note of the second bar as Open Hi-Hat.
The keyboard starts playing some melody also in 3/4 at 247BPM.
The guitar (rhythmic) comp part is also played in 3/4 at 247BPM.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...0/?temp_hash=8cef5e908e4eee49ec2034f36fcea714
Next.
I cut a short clip with MORE pronounced 3/4.
Also, the lead vocal is in 3/4.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...4/?temp_hash=8cef5e908e4eee49ec2034f36fcea714
...
But the bass player is undoubtedly plowing with 4/4.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...8/?temp_hash=8cef5e908e4eee49ec2034f36fcea714
I listened briefly to this last night, but I don't have headphones at work with me so I can't listen at the moment. But just based on your description, I'd be inclined to think that the whole thing is 6/8 or 12/8 with dotted quarter = approximately 165. That would account for your description of both the bass part (8th note triplet feel in 4/4 with quarter note = 165 is equal to 12/8 with dotted quarter = 165) and well as the guitar, keys and high hat parts (four measures of 3/4 at quarter note = 247 is roughly the equivalent of one measure of 12/8 with dotted quarter at approximately 165).
Last edited:
Linley Marthe is always changing/embellishing his two-bar rhythmic pattern; therefore, I've just wrote down two bars. It's like a template.
Should I transcribe in 12/8 or in 4/4?
Sorry, it should be G not Gm7.
Should I transcribe in 12/8 or in 4/4?
Sorry, it should be G not Gm7.
Last edited:
I'm still inclined to say 12/8.
Note: in 12/8, you should define the tempo by reference to a dotted eighth note, not a quarter note.
Yes, when you have not just a simple shuffle/swing feel but variations of it in one bar, I'd prefer to use 12/8.
One part on the bass from that composition sounded so in 3/4 that I decided to transcribe in 3/4.
Here is that short part with CLEARLY 3/4 feel. I mean, 3/4 not 6/8 because of the drum pattern - Kick - Snare - Snare - Kick - Snare - Snare, etc...
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...5/?temp_hash=94571bf536bf8490d3e2dae56d1b3690
Here is only a 4-bar bass pattern.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...6/?temp_hash=94571bf536bf8490d3e2dae56d1b3690
And here is my transcription of that 4-bar in 3/4 at 247BPM bass pattern.
Last edited:
I wouldn't say so. The bass player is playing with four primary beats to the measure, but that's *not* necessarily the same thing as 4/4. In the basic form of 12/8, which is what this is AFAICS, there are in fact four main pulses, on the dotted quarters.
In some forms of music, with this kind of groove, it's not uncommon to hear parts that seem to have 4 main beats coexisting with parts that have 6 or 3. It's just a matter of subdividing the elements differently. That is, 3 + 3 + 3 + 3 vs 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2.
Whether you write a given piece of music as 12/8 or 6/4 often comes down to little more than evaluating where you think the bulk of the rhythmic weight lies (on the 6-beat feel or the 4 beat feel). Sometimes it's quite obvious and clear, with little or any grounds for confusion; other times, say in more African or Latin-influenced musics, maybe not so much. In these Zawinul examples, it seems pretty clear that the greater weight is on 4 main beats per measure, so I would call this 12/8 and call it a day.
Thank you for your comment.
It's just fascinates me how easily superb Musicians can switch those feels - slide in and out - without any problems.
Here is a short excerpt from that Zavinul composition.
At first, I can clearly hear that 3/4 or 6/4 feel. Around 0:11, the bass player starts transitioning to 4/4 as 12/8, and around 0:28, the bass is just "walking" in 4/4.
At 0:48, the bass is back to 12/8 while the drummer plays kind of jazz-waltz in 3/4 or 6/4.
Around 0:53, the whole band plays tutti in 3/4 or 6/4.
At 0:58, we have a straight shuffle in 4/4.
At 1:04, the bass is back in 12/8, while the drummer and the guitar - playing the melody - continue in 3/4 or 6/4.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...7/?temp_hash=600dd30c3d1b0616ec3bfaf3ea5a8f22
P.S. Wow, your TB member number is 1,284!
