4, 5 -Or- 6 String?

[sxaxsx]

Did you read the link I posted from Fender's site? Rev J is correct.

I didn't say he was wrong, I said he was only partially correct. His comment seemed to imply that the electric bass was invented for guitarists not bassists. Yes the article mentions the addition of frets which is why it was called a Precision, and that guitarists could more easily pick it up.
But his point was that Leo didn't intend for it to be a replacement of the upright. Yet the article specifically calls it the successor of the upright:
"Its predecessor was the age-old upright bass," It also mentions portability, "a large, bulky instrument that took up a lot of space in the touring bus," and the volume issues, "and had become increasingly difficult to hear as bands grew louder." and...
"Given the brash horn sections that provided the main voice of many dance bands, the inherent loudness of drum kits and the advent of better electrified guitars with better amplification, something needed to be done for bass.
And by 1949, bands certainly were getting louder and smaller."
The article also lists a number of prominent bassists at the time that Fender got to market for them. No where in the article (or anywhere else) does it say that it wasn't meant to replace the upright, which is why I said his comment wasn't entirely true.

 

[Moving Pictures]

I like them all, 4,5 or 6 string. I tried a 7 but it felt awkward to me and truthfully it exceeded my current needs. However I love listening to all of them. Just play what works for you. It's all good in my opinion.

 

[sxaxsx]

You're kind of splitting hairs here.

Yeah I was kind of thinking the same thing, that I was splitting hairs. Sorry!
In the context of this thread it seemed like he was trying to make the old Anthony Jackson argument: “Why is four the standard and not six? As the lowest-pitched member of the guitar family, the instrument should have had six strings from the beginning.” Anthony Jackson

No offense to Jackson, I just don't agree with him on this. With that logic a six string bass should be tuned EADGBE, which he himself doesn't tune that way.
I don't think the history of the instrument should dictate how many strings it has, I think the music you intend to play with it should.

 

[bassbenj]

In the context of this thread it seemed like he was trying to make the old Anthony Jackson argument: “Why is four the standard and not six? As the lowest-pitched member of the guitar family, the instrument should have had six strings from the beginning.” Anthony Jackson

No offense to Jackson, I just don't agree with him on this. With that logic a six string bass should be tuned EADGBE, which he himself doesn't tune that way.

I don't think the history of the instrument should dictate how many strings it has, I think the music you intend to play with it should.

In a way I don't agree with Anthony Jackson either, but differently from you. I think there is a reason that a double bass is not even tuned like a violin. And the same thing more or less holds for the guitar family. What I'm getting at is that a guitar is tuned EADGBE because it plays chords and that helps you create 6 strings all with notes within the chord of choice using finger positions it's possible for humans to reach.

But a bass instrument does not typically play chords if for no greater reason than they sound muddy. So bass chords are typically only in the upper registers. Mostly the playing is single notes. So that eliminates the guitar tuning thing right off. (though some guitarists who play bass do tune that way so they don't have to learn new fingerings for upper register chords).

But my big 4 string gripe has usually been it doesn't go low enough. It was my gripe on my upright and also on my later bass guitars. A lot of popular music from the era in horn keys made the situation even worse! The bass range on a piano goes WAY lower and yet this is supposed to be a "bass" instrument. That always struck me as hosed.

So once you tune in fourths because you don't need to make chords like a guitar you suddenly have an advantage that pianos or guitars or many other instruments don't have. You can change keys simply by starting patterns on a new note either up or down the neck or sideways string to string. And this is where my favorite the 24 fret 6 string really shines!

And I agree that choosing 4 strings for historical reasons is dumb. It's even dumber given that players of 4 string uprights in symphonies etc, ALSO noticed the problem and added range "extenders" and even went to 5 string uprights long ago. So the bass guitar copied a tradition that was already being fixed!

 

[bassbenj]

Yet the article specifically calls it the successor of the upright:
"Its predecessor was the age-old upright bass," It also mentions portability, "a large, bulky instrument that took up a lot of space in the touring bus," and the volume issues, "and had become increasingly difficult to hear as bands grew louder." and...
"Given the brash horn sections that provided the main voice of many dance bands, the inherent loudness of drum kits and the advent of better electrified guitars with better amplification, something needed to be done for bass.

This is exactly why I bought a bass guitar to replace my upright bass. Fitting my upright bass, 3 x 12 cab and head into my VW bug just got tiresome! (yes it WAS possible!) So I got a bass guitar. Mostly I found the idea of this being an improvement was mostly wrong. Unlike my upright which often did not need the amp and cab (but bands WERE getting louder all the time) the guitar always needed the amp and cab! And the upright was pretty light. all the schlepping weight was in the amp and cab. But the bass guitar though somewhat (though not a lot) smaller was pretty heavy. At the time my final decision was that the guitar was slightly better but not THAT much better. My dreams of no load-in never went anywhere. I'd say the thing that finally sold me on the bass guitar was the absence of feedback. With bands getting louder all the time, I found the even with my home-made upright bridge pickup (which was not seen much at the time) amp feedback was very much a problem when you tried to push levels. Bass guitar solved that problem completely. But smaller size was the story that sold me at the time and I never really went back to upright though periodically I do get upright GAS when "extra" money is burning a hole in my pocket. So far I haven't given in though.

 

[gary m]

Hmm...making me think about this one.

Probably the 6 in terms of overall pitch range...in a smaller ensemble, there may be more sonic space to fill and the extended range may be an advantage. However, I like a good 4 for roots and oldies. It depends on the application for me.

 

[ChessTiger]

I can't count past four so...four it is for this ChessTiger

 

[Projectile]

Depends entirely on the style of music. I used to play 5'ers when I was mostly doing contemporary jazz and drop-tuned metal gigs, but these days I much prefer 4 strings for the kinds of bands I find myself playing in. Any more than 4 strings just comes across wrong in some genres.

 

[dhagler]

4. I started with 4, switched to 5 after about a year, went back to 4 a little over a year ago (after 6 years of playing 5 almost exclusively).

Best decision I ever made. Well, that and realizing I only like playing Fender Jazz basses.

 

[unclejane]

Yeah I was kind of thinking the same thing, that I was splitting hairs. Sorry!
In the context of this thread it seemed like he was trying to make the old Anthony Jackson argument: “Why is four the standard and not six? As the lowest-pitched member of the guitar family, the instrument should have had six strings from the beginning.” Anthony Jackson

No offense to Jackson, I just don't agree with him on this. With that logic a six string bass should be tuned EADGBE, which he himself doesn't tune that way.
I don't think the history of the instrument should dictate how many strings it has, I think the music you intend to play with it should.

Well, if the bass guitar has an Andres Segovia, it's Anthony Jackson. His attitude toward the bass is almost classical - he maintains the idea that the bass is a form of the guitar more than a separate instrument devoted just to bass.

So when you think about it, it's not entirely weird for AJ to say this.

But I tend to agree with you that the music probably dictates the form the instrument should take. And whether we agree with AJ's sentiment about the bass is probably more of an academic subject than a practical consideration about the bass itself.

I've played both 4's and 6's full time and just ordered a 5 string. I started on the fretted, but went FL a little over a decade ago. In that time, I've not really found the number of strings to change the character of it as a bass guitar, at least stopping at 6 strings. It's always a bass, just with more range when you add strings.

The FL innovation only affects the tone and not the character of the instrument. All that does in terms of discipline is impose the requirement for intonation - a challenge that I just happen to enjoy on its own in addition to the tonal benefits. But that makes no other difference in terms of its status as a musical instrument. Other FL players may disagree with me and say FL has some other cosmic effect, but I haven't really found that to be true. it's still a bass, but simply one that you also have to learn to intonate. Everything else you have to learn is the same.

Once you get to 7 or more strings, it gets more capabilities as a polyphonic instrument and can go into more guitar-like ranges. And can go deeper when you add lower strings...

I dunno, that might change what you call it - extended range bass seems to be a common name - but I think it's still an "electric bass" or "bass guitar". Hard to say when the functions can get blurred like that.

But in the end, who cares. You can still play root/5th blues, praise&worship, C&W and other styles on it, so it fits the bill. I probably therefore don't think it has to have such and such number of strings. Maybe a minimum of 4? That'd be it for me.

LS

 

[sxaxsx]

What I'm getting at is that a guitar is tuned EADGBE because it plays chords and that helps you create 6 strings all with notes within the chord of choice using finger positions it's possible for humans to reach.

Yeah I agree with you here about the chordal need differences between the instruments dictating tuning. I guess there are some six string players that tune EADGBE, but not sure why, maybe if they already knew guitar chords and didn't want to relearn? Or is there some other musical reason i'm unaware of?

The bass range on a piano goes WAY lower and yet this is supposed to be a "bass" instrument. That always struck me as hosed.

Even with a five string the piano has a full octave lower. Lucky for the piano player they don't have to fret the strings required to reach that range. For us bassists, physics is in the way here. Also with a piano most notes are sounded by more than one string being played at a time. They are just different instruments, in the same way the treble side of a piano goes way higher than a guitar. And yet we see guitarists playing 7 and 8 string guitars adding lower notes, that the bassist in the band can already cover, not higher ones. Has modern music become too obsessed with low range??

Depends entirely on the style of music. I used to play 5'ers when I was mostly doing contemporary jazz and drop-tuned metal gigs, but these days I much prefer 4 strings for the kinds of bands I find myself playing in. Any more than 4 strings just comes across wrong in some genres.

I agree, its what I said all along in this thread, that it depends on the music, and not only that but the role of the bassist, and what other musicians are in the band.

 

[mark beem]

So then is it safe to say that 4 string's have become somewhat outdated?

I wouldn't say that. Great music is still being made with them. The bass guitar has not advanced enough from its first iteration to make such a broad declaration. The 4 string bass is still a viable instrument as demonstrated by many artists today.

Edit: IMHO

 

[bobicidal]

So then is it safe to say that 4 string's have become somewhat outdated?

I'm sure you will get a lot of replies saying NO but here is my response: After I quit actively playing for nearly 20 years and started again, I decided to do so with a five string because it gives me more options. I was very surprised to find it was not that big a deal going back and forth but since spent the money on a quality fiver it's virtually all I play.

 

[ArtechnikA]

So then is it safe to say that 4 string's have become somewhat outdated?

You mean in the sense that no physical damage will befall you? Sure.
Would it be true? I don't think so.
That said - I've never owned one...

 

[bassbenj]

Yeah I agree with you here about the chordal need differences between the instruments dictating tuning. I guess there are some six string players that tune EADGBE, but not sure why, maybe if they already knew guitar chords and didn't want to relearn? Or is there some other musical reason i'm unaware of?

Even with a five string the piano has a full octave lower. Lucky for the piano player they don't have to fret the strings required to reach that range. For us bassists, physics is in the way here. Also with a piano most notes are sounded by more than one string being played at a time. They are just different instruments, in the same way the treble side of a piano goes way higher than a guitar. And yet we see guitarists playing 7 and 8 string guitars adding lower notes, that the bassist in the band can already cover, not higher ones. Has modern music become too obsessed with low range??

I agree, its what I said all along in this thread, that it depends on the music, and not only that but the role of the bassist, and what other musicians are in the band.

As far as I know you are right that ERB players tuning EADGBE (or 7 string BEADGBE) are guitarists who want to use the chords they already know. Since the guitar tuning is about making fingering chords easier there is a certain amount of sense in tuning an ERB this way if you intend to use a lot of chords on the high strings. But as I noted you then do lose the ability to change keys by just starting on a different note.

I do happen to own a 7 string guitar (not bass), but I'll admit that I only use it when there is no bass (singing accompaniment etc.) and the lower notes do work out well. But I seen no problem with an 8 string guitar going into bass range and a 7 string bass going up into guitar areas. Obviously the key like in all music is not to walk all over each other.

And I do find a 4 string much better for old school classic bass lines. Sure it's theoretically possible to play classic 4 string lines on a 5er, but my problem is that when I play a 5 string, I not only have a bad habit of "improving" the basslines of the masters (obviously NOT a good idea), but also you play a 5er differently which makes it not quite the same as doing the same exact bass line on a 4 string. It really does depend on the music.

 

[OutToPlayJazz]

I'm actually playing fours exclusively these days, but usually depends on the neck thickness (fingers to thumb.) I had a year or two with a lovely Yamaha TRB-6 which had a very flattened profile, so it was a joy to play for big band recordings and musical theatre. My main jazz player has been a Status S2 5er up until recently and that was ideal for solos, especially with a phenowood fingerboard. But now it's all fours for the time being, for the speed and litheness. In all honesty, on pro jobs the five has rarely been used for a while, hence it's replacement with an MM Classic Sabre. I think four is enough most of the time.

 

[ArtechnikA]

As far as I know you are right that ERB players tuning EADGBE (or 7 string BEADGBE) are guitarists who want to use the chords they already know.

Usually the answer to this is 'Bass VI' which is a useful and legitimate instrument for a lot of people.

I have the usual Mel Bay 'Chord Finder' book for guitar, and I'm in the slow process of transcribing them for standard (BEADGC) 6-string bass - I've seen (and purchased...) chord books for bass, but I haven't seen any for 6-string. And I believe the process of thinking through and writing down the diagrams will help set them in my memory - I learn visually most easily... I bought a rubber stamp with 6 strings and 4 frets, so I just need to draw the dots.

Learning where my fingers go is only half the battle - placing them accurately and consistently (fretless...) is the ongoing other half...

 

[raventepes]

4's, 6's and 7's for my tastes.

4's for when I need just a basic bass, 6's because I see no sense in having just a single extra string, and 7's because...well...why not?

 

[Lee Moses]

4s and 6s. Because I don't believe in doing things halfway.