40z question/PA Support

[walterw]

yeah, 5-strings aren't really doing squat at the low B's nominal 30Hz. it's all the first harmonic, 60Hz, and up.

anyway i've got a nice older QSC PLX power amp coming for my bass rig, a big reason for that being the option to kick in the 50Hz filter; that's gonna tighten up my 15 cabs and give me some more headroom, i'm sure.

 

[jeffgnr90]

The OP didn't specify whether he was playing a 4 or a 5 string bass, but with all this "in the mud" description of the frequencies between 30 and 40 Hz lets not forget that the fundamental frequencies of the first 4 notes on the low B string are all between 30 and 40 Hz. Certainly much of what we end up hearing is harmonics, but, just sayin'

I'm playing a 4 string

 

[two fingers]

Well, some have suggested here that perhaps the PA could cover the lows while your rig carries the mids and highs in the room (if I read it right anyway). I wouldn't bank on that. Your rig probably won't project in all directions in most cases so some people in the audience will hear it but some won't. Also, try cutting the lows on your amp, but not your pedal EQ. That way, those frequencies are still sent to the FOH, but you have cut them from the stage. (Am I making any sense here?)

 

[jeffgnr90]

...cool that you're naturally interested in sounding as good as possible -with that quirk alone you're ahead of the curve ...perhaps I'm generalizing a bit but it seems that many of us bassists are the ones that have interest in getting the bands 'sound & mix' perfect -for me it started around 1980, there was a older bootleg recording about to be released, a 1973 'live' Black Sabbath concert, since we loved their 1st, 2nd and 4th albums we assumed 'live' would be even heavier...I finally got the record, only to be stunned at how weak, loose and sloppy it sounded, almost a betrayal since I wouldn't dare have shown it to others as with their earlier 'studio' material. Anyway a few months later Rush releases "Exit stage left" -a live offering from their 1980/81' "Moving Pictures" tour -listening in decent headphones, the first song I happened to play was "La Villa Strangiato" (picked because I never heard it before). In one of those 'eureka' moments I was struck at how "a deep thud mixed with a nasally smack' enhanced not only Pearts playing but instantly took a good song and turned it into a great song -basically it was a "so THATS how you're supposed to sound live" kind of thing...at that time the only way to achieve this at a local level was to build up a tri-amped pa which as many know is 3 independent amplifiers each running a portion of audio frequency range to a speaker best suited for it -basically the 'thud' portion of that kick never interferes with the 'smack' which in fact mixes perfectly with vocals while stunningly clean cymbals shimmer over the whole thing -it seems kind of logical that if you're an original band 'only' you better not only play well but sound pretty memorable, other then friends and such you can't always keep peoples attention on songs they've never heard -an air moving punch mixed with sparkling clean cymbals isn't a bad frame for a band to fit in and if mixed well tends to sound like a top shelf home stereo on steroids.

I do play in a Zeppelin cover band and play bass for a guys solo project (pop/punk *mehhh*) but my favorite is playing in my 3 piece which is my main band and what I truly sound like (other bands aside) and the only thing I want to sound like lol. I happen to be a big Geddy Lee fan as well as a fan of that prog. rock bass sound. None of the musicians around me locally (4 towns) that I know are into prog. so when I go on stage rockin that prog. sound (with what equip. I do have) people are like what the hell is that!? In a good way too lol. I have a 115 that I want to add a second of which would be my clean bassy tone, while my ampeg 210s rock everything else. All these cabs though are full range and not designed for particular freq. ranges which is something I gotta live with for the time being. How did you split the frequencies between the cabs? And were they full range or specially designed? And as you may have been able to tell, I'm slightly over enthusiastic/obsessed with sounding as good as possible. Just as well the whole band sounding as good as possible, and 1/3 of that is on me. I like to have fun playing too

 

[jeffgnr90]

Well, some have suggested here that perhaps the PA could cover the lows while your rig carries the mids and highs in the room (if I read it right anyway). I wouldn't bank on that. Your rig probably won't project in all directions in most cases so some people in the audience will hear it but some won't. Also, try cutting the lows on your amp, but not your pedal EQ. That way, those frequencies are still sent to the FOH, but you have cut them from the stage. (Am I making any sense here?)

yes you are making sense. My pedals would stay the same eq wise, but I'd only be making adjustments via the amps. Especially since the DI is running out of my Sansamp. As far as everyone being able to hear everything equally, that's why I'm steering away from 410s and sticking with stacked 210s or single speakers like my 115s. I don't know nor can I explain the science behind, but from what I gather the vertical stacking does wonders for sound dispersion. And I've noticed it also. For shows with out the PA support when I'd be running two rigs per chance, then it's my understanding that their may be some phase cancelling.

 

[jeffgnr90]

https://sites.google.com/site/hpftechllc/

thanks for this link! I'm going to look into these

 

[RS66LB]

Yeah, same here- live shows are the best. As far as splitting frequencies Its as simple as taking the output from a mixer and running it into the input of an inexpensive crossover,
the crossover has 3 outputs per side (low,mid,high) each one goes to its own stereo amp which feeds a pair of cabs, the highs go to the compression driver/horns, the mids go to a mid speaker (extended range 12" speakers with two per cab can sound great) while even the simplest 2x18 cabs make a great all around sub.
Of course triamping is rarely done in the afore mentioned method anymore, sure it maximizes your efficiency however hook up is more complex while lugging around extra cabs isn't too much fun.
Because 'wattage' is so cheap it's actually pretty common to see bands on a budget using the simple 'mixer-amplifier-speakers' while a pair of powered subs add the thud (usually a 1x15 or 1x18) -of course since wattage and crossovers are in fact pretty cheap you could step up to a pair of 2x18 unpowered cabs by using a single inexpensive crossover/power amp combination.
I know dragging around large pa cabs (in addition to your own equipment) is a pain however some of us are in to it.
...I mean if you're going to put your material out there make sure it at least sounds clean, shiney and shocking

 

[Zooberwerx]

Of course triamping is rarely done in the afore mentioned method anymore, sure it maximizes your efficiency however hook up is more complex while lugging around extra cabs isn't too much fun.

It doesn't always require extra cabs....even some of the midsize tripod-able mains do have biamp capability. It does require 1-2 extra dedicated power amp channels, though. I did a trial triamp config using Carvin 3-ways and pair of Yorkie subs. It was tons of fun and I even went as far as to build a custom speaker cable patch to tie-in two separate power amp inputs into a single 4 conductor cable. Make a huge difference? Not really but I'm of the understanding that some PA enclosures really shine when powered in this fashion. FTR, I set the crossovers at 100 hz (subs >< mains) and 500-630 hz (mains 15" driver >< 5" mid & HF). Throw in a DriveRack and addt'l audio processors as desired, crank some canned tracks, and sit back and enjoy the light show on the front console. It's a thing of beauty.

Riis

 

[jeffgnr90]

Yea as cool as triamping sounds I could really only afford to biamp. My crate bt350 has the biamp feature and I can pick where the cross over is. I'd probably do 120hz and lower into my 15's and everything else into my 10's. Im getting a GK 700rb II which also has the biamp feature but you can only use GK cabs as far as I know.

 

[Jerry Ziarko]

I know I'll get flamed for this, but most engineers use a high pass filter on bass guitar somewhere down around 40-50hz, and for good reason. The stuff below, 40hz etc. does little to your bass sound, other than to muddy it up. The old joke between engineers: "Don't you just love the sound of 40hz? Yeah, me neither"

 

[jeffgnr90]

I know I'll get flamed for this, but most engineers use a high pass filter on bass guitar somewhere down around 40-50hz, and for good reason. The stuff below, 40hz etc. does little to your bass sound, other than to muddy it up. The old joke between engineers: "Don't you just love the sound of 40hz? Yeah, me neither"

And it especially gets in the way of the kick too, i guess depending on the recording.

yeaaaa ima have to buy me one 'o dem HPFs

 

[Jazzdogg]

I know I'll get flamed for this, but most engineers use a high pass filter on bass guitar somewhere down around 40-50hz, and for good reason. The stuff below, 40hz etc. does little to your bass sound, other than to muddy it up. The old joke between engineers: "Don't you just love the sound of 40hz? Yeah, me neither"

+1 After tweaking the placement of my bass cabs, the first thing I do in difficult venues is reach for the HPF to trim the low bass.

When I'm running sound for a band, I cut everything below ~100 Hz in the stage monitors - deep bass on stage makes a mess of FOH sound, and can make it much more difficult for band mates to hear each other clearly. The deep bass that bleeds onto stage from FOH subs is plenty!

 

[jeffgnr90]

+1 After tweaking the placement of my bass cabs, the first thing I do in difficult venues is reach for the HPF to trim the low bass.

When I'm running sound for a band, I cut everything below ~100 Hz in the stage monitors - deep bass on stage makes a mess of FOH sound, and can make it much more difficult for band mates to hear each other clearly. The deep bass that bleeds onto stage from FOH subs is plenty!

How would this change given you're doing an outdoor venue? Just curious.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Even when playing outdoor gigs, too much low bass on stage can be problematic for band members and FOH. Granted, outdoor spaces suck up deep bass far more noticeably than indoor venues, and less low bass typically needs to be cut. But, the paradigm remains valid IME.