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410 and 210 cabs together

#21
Addison said:
I ran across an 8 ohm Mesa Powerhouse 410 and an 8ohm Mesa Powerhouse 210 for a RIDICULOUS deal as a set, called Mesa before buying and asked them the same question you asked, and I was told the same thing you were told...

They said, don't worry... as far as your Big Block 750 is concerned, it's the same as running a 610 cab.

As in this thread, many people on this board gave me contrary information, but I decided to listen to Mesa instead of the TB innanet experts.

Why wouldn't I?

So, I bought them... and they sounded fantastic running together. I couldn't tell any difference in power distribution and it seemed like all was well. It looked like Mesa was right and TB was wrong.

UNTIL...

We started getting MUCH bigger gigs, and I started having to drive my amp much harder. Then, to me, the difference was clear. The 210 was running considerably harder than the 410 at higher volumes. When I really pushed the cabs hard, you could actually see it happening with your eyes... speaker movement with the 210 was considerably more noticeable than with the 410. The 410 was noticeably quieter than the 410, and the 210 was beginning to sound like it was farting out.

Again... at lower volumes, I didn't hear or see any power distribution problems, and the pair sounded fantastic together. But, once I pushed them really hard, the differences between the two cabs became pretty clear.

Personally, I still don't quite understand the physics behind it... but it was seeing/hearing it with my own eyes/ears that made the difference.
Click to expand...

No real physics behind it. Each cab presents a specific load that the amp sees. In this case, 8ohms. Electricity doesn't care...it sees two paths it can run, they both have the same amount of resistance, meaning the amp pushes the same amount of voltage into each one.

Or using a water analogy your amp isn't counting speakers, its just trying to jam as much water down the pipe as the pipe will allow (or in this case, two pipes)...down at the far end of the pipe, the 4x10 has twice as much 'outlet' for that water than a 210, and there fore the those two speakers are getting twice the water (power).
 
#22
Addison said:
Personally, I still don't quite understand the physics behind it... but it was seeing/hearing it with my own eyes/ears that made the difference.
Click to expand...

It is really not that hard to grasp.

Two cabinets , each rated for 8 ohms presents a total 4 ohm load to the amp.

Since both cabs are the same impedance, the power gets split 50/50 between them.

Once you grasp that, then all you need to realize is that the power sent to each cab gets distributed between the speakers in that cab.

For example:

If using a 1600 watt amp (for ease of numbers), each cab would be sent 1/2 the power (800 watts).

Now - a 4X10 would get 200 watts PER SPEAKER, while the 2X10 (which also gets 800 watts) would get 400 watts per speaker.

Easy to see now which cab is getting worked harder, and is the weakest link in the chain.
 
#23
Addison said:
I
Personally, I still don't quite understand the physics behind it... but it was seeing/hearing it with my own eyes/ears that made the difference.
Click to expand...

It is pretty simple. The amp doesn't 'care' how many speakers are in a cab. It only delivers differential power based on the nominal impedance of the cab (assuming we are talking about solid state amps). So, if an amp, for example, is rated at 200 watts output at 8ohms, that amp is going to put out 200 watts into an 8ohm cab no matter what the driver configuration is. If it is a 115 8ohm cab, then all 200 watts go to that single 15. If it is a 410, then each of the 4 10" speakers get 50 watts (1/4 of the 200 watts). An 8ohm 212.... 100 watts per driver.

So, now lets take two cabs with the same nominal impedance (8ohms) but different numbers of the same drivers (in your case, an 8ohm 410 and an 8ohm 210). The amp is now running at 4ohms, assuming the typical parallel connection (i.e., running out of either two speaker outputs on the amp or daisy chaining the cabs together). So, lets say now the cab puts out 360 watts at 4ohms (i.e., the typical 'slightly less than twice as much as the 8ohm output).

Since each cab gets half the power of the amp, each cab gets 180 watts. However, since that 180 watts is divided among 4 speakers in the 410, each driver gets 45 watts. HOWEVER, for the 210, since there are only two drivers, those drivers are actually getting 90 watts a piece (the 180 watt power delivery to the cab, divided between only two drivers).

So, hopefully, you can see that the 210 will run out of steam when really pushed earlier than the 410.

You must think of this by 'drivers', not by 'cabinets'.

So, Markbass was 'kind of' right, but somehow got their impedance levels mixed up. A 4 ohm 410 and an 8ohm 210 (assuming the same tuning and same drivers) WILL behave like a 610 cab, since now the cabinet with twice as many drivers gets twice as much power. Hence, every driver gets the same amount of power in the entire system.

:)
 
#24
Ampeg SVT 810.

This cab you can consider as:

210/16Ohm+210/16Ohm+210/16Ohm+210/16Ohm

or

410/8Ohm+210/16Ohm+210/16Ohm

or

410/8Ohm+410/8Ohm

or

810/4Ohm


Or take a power saw and cut off a 210 from 810 and make it a 610

210/16Ohm+210/16Ohm+210/16Ohm

or

410/8Ohm+210/16Ohm

or

610/5,6Ohm
 
#25
Bass_Pounder said:
It is really not that hard to grasp.
Click to expand...
I get it now, the way you guys explained it so well...

However, when I was on the phone with them and I started to dig deeper and ask about the same things you explained, they were able to retort in a way that ALSO made sense... at least it did at the time.

Unfortunately, I can't even remember how they explained it... :confused:

Anyway, by the time I came out of the haze, I was talking to the dealer with my phone in one hand and my credit card in the other looking like the wolf in a Tex Avery cartoon thinking about my cool new Mesa cabs I was gonna get in a few days. :rollno:

:D
 
#26
An 8 ohm 210 on a 8 ohm 410 is the same as a 210 on a 410 speaker stand. It sounds pretty good, but see how good it sounds when you unplug the 410. Remember the amp just saw the 4 ohm load change to an 8 ohm load and consider that when you notice a volume difference.
 
#27
Addison said:
I get it now, the way you guys explained it so well...

However, when I was on the phone with them and I started to dig deeper and ask about the same things you explained, they were able to retort in a way that ALSO made sense... at least it did at the time.

Unfortunately, I can't even remember how they explained it... :confused:

Anyway, by the time I came out of the haze, I was talking to the dealer with my phone in one hand and my credit card in the other looking like the wolf in a Tex Avery cartoon thinking about my cool new Mesa cabs I was gonna get in a few days. :rollno:

:D
Click to expand...

I guess what they might have been suggesting is that if the 210 at 8ohms could easily handle the amp's power (half of the power the amp puts out at 4ohms), then you would not run into an issue with the 210 reaching its thermal or mechanical limits at all. Therefore, the 8ohm 210 and 8ohm 410, in that case, could work OK together. In this case, the 210 would be a bit closer in volume to the 410, allowing the 210 to 'speak a bit more' in that combination (i.e., the CABS would be a bit more volume balanced versus the DRIVERS being balanced in the other 4ohm 410/8ohm 210 scenario).

That is tricky business though, with the high powered amps out there today. However, with a lower powered amp, most 8ohm 210's can handle 250-300 watts easily.

So, it COULD work OK, and given that the tuning and voicing of the 210 and 410 is often quite different (even within the same model line and manufacturer), I guess it could actually sound better in some cased (i.e., allowing the 210 to speak a bit more in the stack).
 
#28
Bass_Pounder said:
It is really not that hard to grasp.

Two cabinets , each rated for 8 ohms presents a total 4 ohm load to the amp.

Since both cabs are the same impedance, the power gets split 50/50 between them.

Once you grasp that, then all you need to realize is that the power sent to each cab gets distributed between the speakers in that cab.

For example:

If using a 1600 watt amp (for ease of numbers), each cab would be sent 1/2 the power (800 watts).

Now - a 4X10 would get 200 watts PER SPEAKER, while the 2X10 (which also gets 800 watts) would get 400 watts per speaker.

Easy to see now which cab is getting worked harder, and is the weakest link in the chain.
Click to expand...

Yes I see it now, the way they explained it made it seem that the amp doesn't see 2 cabinets it sees 6 speakers and gives each speaker the same wattage, from what you guys are saying I need a 410 at 4ohms and a 210 with 8ohms and a head that will go down to 2 ohms then everything will be peachy.

At normal or lower volumes you could get away with it their way but they should realize that when you use 2 cabs its usually so you can get all the power your amp produces.

Now I need to know do amps run hotter and harder when at 2 ohms, I always thought they ran easier from less resistance but I'm wrong most of the time so why not again.
 
#29
RotoRick said:
Yes I see it now, the way they explained it made it seem that the amp doesn't see 2 cabinets it sees 6 speakers and gives each speaker the same wattage, from what you guys are saying I need a 410 at 4ohms and a 210 with 8ohms and a head that will go down to 2 ohms then everything will be peachy.

At normal or lower volumes you could get away with it their way but they should realize that when you use 2 cabs its usually so you can get all the power your amp produces.

Now I need to know do amps run hotter and harder when at 2 ohms, I always thought they ran easier from less resistance but I'm wrong most of the time so why not again.
Click to expand...

Solid state amps do run hotter.
 
#32
RotoRick said:
Now I need to know do amps run hotter and harder when at 2 ohms, I always thought they ran easier from less resistance but I'm wrong most of the time so why not again.
Click to expand...

Very much so, which is why most amps are not capable of doing that.

That is also why, I would guess, that manufacturers who make heads and cabs typically say 'use two 8ohm cabs, no matter what the combination':p
 
#35
Not the tube amps, as they run off a tap specifically designed for the rated load. But a solid state head, even if rated to 2 ohms, WILL run hotter. Most would have a cooling fan though, so it's not that big a deal. So long as the amp says minimum load, 2 ohms, you should be ok.
 
#36
Glad I ran across this as I was just about to start seriously looking to pair a 2x?(10,12,15) with my 4x10. The smaller cab would be for mainly practice hauling since Im tired of lugging the 4x10 around. Live I'd like to have the option of using both. The 4x10 is a GK neo and I'll be using a 1001rb head. Given that the neo is 8ohm what would be the best option for a smaller extension? Or is it a case of just biting the bullet if I ever wanted to use two cabs and sticking with 2 4x10's only. I might not drive the 2x10 hard enough to make it an issue but then again even if its an issue once it's too often for me.
 
#37
RotoRick said:
No, I'm talking about big boy amps that can easily handle a 2ohm load like Ampeg SVT pro 8, pro 4 All tube heads, Mesa m9 carbine, you know the big guns.

Will these amps run hotter at 2ohms than they do at 4 ohms ?
Click to expand...

AS stated above, tube amps are an entirely different thing, and their output does not vary by cab impedance. They have to be 'impedance matched' to the cab(s).

If a head is rated for safe operation at 2ohms, you would be fine. Some will run hotter, since they will put out more power at 2ohms than at higher impedance. More power equals more heat. Other amps, like the Mesa M9 and the Genz 1200, have a special 2ohm operating mode switch that does something to the power supply (or something!) that keeps the wattage at close to 4ohm levels, therefore running less hot.

The best execution to run 'below 4ohms' for me is a dual mono amp like the Genz Shuttle Max 12.2, which has two amps that can each run at 4ohms, driven by a single mono preamp.

Lots of ways to get there.
 
#38
Warmuth said:
Glad I ran across this as I was just about to start seriously looking to pair a 2x?(10,12,15) with my 4x10. The smaller cab would be for mainly practice hauling since Im tired of lugging the 4x10 around. Live I'd like to have the option of using both. The 4x10 is a GK neo and I'll be using a 1001rb head. Given that the neo is 8ohm what would be the best option for a smaller extension? Or is it a case of just biting the bullet if I ever wanted to use two cabs and sticking with 2 4x10's only. I might not drive the 2x10 hard enough to make it an issue but then again even if its an issue once it's too often for me.
Click to expand...
A 212 or 215 will both typically be as big or bigger than your 410.

My initial thoughts were the same as yours... use my 210 for small, small stuff... use my 410 for medium stuff... use both for large stuff.

But, as it turns out, as convenient as this would be I wouldn't suggest it.

I ended up parking the 210 and 410 permanently and bought a 412 for the big stuff and two separate 112's for the small to medium stuff. It's damn spendy, but... I gig enough to justify it.

The 210 and 410 are about to go into a local shop on consignment.
 
#40
Addison said:
A 212 or 215 will both typically be as big or bigger than your 410.

My initial thoughts were the same as yours... use my 210 for small, small stuff... use my 410 for medium stuff... use both for large stuff.

But, as it turns out, as convenient as this would be I wouldn't suggest it.

I ended up parking the 210 and 410 permanently and bought a 412 for the big stuff and two separate 112's for the small to medium stuff. It's damn spendy, but... I gig enough to justify it.

The 210 and 410 are about to go into a local shop on consignment.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I do regret not going 4x12 initially even though the GK cab is great. I'll live with the 4x10 for now and heed your advice on the 2 1x12 or 1 4x12 setup when I can scrounge up the funds. The gigs are spotty for me atm so I can deal with it even if I don't want to haha.
 

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