Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Wut? Is there some level of majorness beyond which orchestras wheel in an oscilloscope? Coz IME, orchestras tune to whatever the principal oboe is feeling that day, and oboes aren't exactly famous for their pitch stability. Skilled as those guys are, I'll eat my tinfoil hat if it's proven that they reliably know whether they're at 440 or 441.
okcrum
in your chest
The upward creep (pitch inflation) in tuning has been going on for a very long time. A440 just slowed it down a bit. The idea is that as string tension rises, so does the amplitude of the harmonics generated by the string relative to the fundamental, making it sound brighter. This can be objectively shown; it's not opinion.
Yes, professional orchestras tune to either the oboe (who, these days, always has an accurate tuner because of the reasons you state) or the piano, since its tuning isn't going anywhere. The piano is always tuned to the orchestra's pitch, whether it's 440 or something else. Once you've got a reference, all you have to do is be able to hear the beat note while tuning to get well under 1 Hz accuracy. This is how instruments were tuned before electronic tuners. It's also good to know how to tune this way today if my tuner dies on a gig. If you examine any good electronic tuner, it's able to be set up anywhere from at least 436 to 445 Hz as A4. The popular Korg Pitchblack is a good example.
Berlin Philharmonic? 443 Hz - Their tuning has actually come down from 445 Hz to 443, also used by number of others in continental Europe.
New York Philharmonic? 442 Hz
Boston Symphony? 441 Hz
London Symphony? 440 Hz (yay!)
1 part in 10,000 accuracy is trivial to attain in tuners these days.
If you want all the gory details, here is a decent annotated description. One of the references is Franz Nistl's world list of orchestral A4 tunings.
Last edited:
Gotcha. Thanks for the detail.
I still wonder whether, once the orchestra has walked on stage and played for a few minutes, anybody would have the faintest clue where they are to within 1Hz. But yeah, it makes sense they have a standard reference for initial tuning. I've never heard my oboe acquaintances talk about electronic tuners, but that might just mean it's a boring topic (unlike reeds, which they can talk about for hours).
Hmm. Intrigued now. Have to ask my oboe pals.
devnulljp
Supporting Member
There's a lot of pseudoscientific woo in that article ... in pretty much everything on that site for that matter.
It's like listening to Deepak Chopra talking about quantum physics. It's clear he doesn't understand tha first thing about it, but is relying on the gullibility of his audience to know even less.
Disclaimer: I'm a molecular biologist, so my ******** meter tends to fire when people start talking about DNA like it's magic.
It's like listening to Deepak Chopra talking about quantum physics. It's clear he doesn't understand tha first thing about it, but is relying on the gullibility of his audience to know even less.
Disclaimer: I'm a molecular biologist, so my ******** meter tends to fire when people start talking about DNA like it's magic.
okcrum
in your chest
There is more than a subtle difference between 432 and 440, but it's going to vary how you experience it from person to person. To me, 432 generally feels better, but I have friends that disagree. I actually prefer something even lower, like A416.
I think that's the point though. If each case was the same part just played at 440 and 432 it'd be obvious which was which.
The video creator was challenging people who think 432 is inherently better, and to do that he just played some parts on lower pitches which I'd say in the majority of cases tricks people.
432 isn't better or worse, it's just different. That's what I got out of the video.
I'll file this in the same category as the high mass bridge fairy and similar fallacies. If you believe it works for you, fine; just don't try to force other people to agree with you. In the meantime, I will keep tuning to either what my tuner tells me, or to the people with whom I am playing.
Last edited:
In my opinion it will make almost no difference to anyone when put in context. As long as the people your playing with are using the same tuning convention, just do what you like.
To the people who prefer a lower A4, have you ever compared doing a different A4 frequency VS dropping a half step down? Doing the half step drop is the same thing just done to a higher degree.
To the people who prefer a lower A4, have you ever compared doing a different A4 frequency VS dropping a half step down? Doing the half step drop is the same thing just done to a higher degree.
I recall that several years ago, someone here posted a story about playing a gig with a house piano that was noticeably flat. Most of the group tuned by ear to the piano so the gig would sound "right", but the guitarist went Burger King and stuck to his tuner. The natural result was that he sounded like crap despite being the only one technically "in tune". So tuning can definitely be a relative thing to the group and situation.
Being that A is 440Hz and Ab is roughly 415Hz we're speaking 8Hz difference, so less than 1/3 of a semitone (speaking frequency, altho' tempered tuning is no linear thing of course). I've heard snobs state they tune to 432 for sounding heavier/darker/thicker/blahblahblah, mostly guitards. You want thicker? Get a f*ing baritone guitar detuned with .013-.068" gauge strings as 1/3 of a semitone won'd do s*it!
This. For some people "different" equals "better" - not me. I have friends in the 432 camp and they are brilliant musicians. I would happily tune down to play with them.
Exactly my idea. If you like A4 at 432 because it sounds heavier/darker/thicker why not just really commit and tune down a step or two...it'd be more of a good thing in that sense, right?
EdwardofHuncote
I Still Dream of Jeannie
- Aug 21, 2013
- 6,667
- 2
- 16,464
- Disclosures
- I privately own and operate a local musical instument repair shop.
I just tune to whatever the guitar player calls standard... the only thing that Hertz is what usually happens next. 
I'm making a conscious effort to speak at a slightly lower pitch (I'm shooting for 432, but I don't carry a tuner with me all the time). I've noticed people liking me more. There's definitely something to this.
Even your written quote speaks directly to my soul and makes my tiger eye chakra feel at one with stuff and other ommmmm ow wow. Amazing. I think I'm going to go get some yoga pants and mess with the speed dial on my record player and burn a really nice smelling candle.
After reading that article I fell asleep. Actually, I got the name of my new band from it...THE DEVIL'S INTERVAL. \m/ .
FWIW I remember hearing Robert Smith of The Cure (a world renowned expert in tuning) state that he tuned his low E to 432. His reasoning was it helped with his vocals. Either that or he was just high.
FWIW I remember hearing Robert Smith of The Cure (a world renowned expert in tuning) state that he tuned his low E to 432. His reasoning was it helped with his vocals. Either that or he was just high.
