5-string P pickups with mismatched coils and hum cancelling

[JimmyM]

Just found out something interesting...Seymour Duncan Custom Shop is making me an SPB-1 for my Yamaha 5-string that has the mismatched 3/2 coil config, and before they sent it, they wanted me to know they wouldn't be doing a typical cloth wiring like they do with the regular SPB-1.

I was told they substitute shielded Mogami wire for the usual wires because a P pickup with mismatched coils can't be made fully humbucking, so they use the shielded wire to make it as quiet as possible. Fine by me...they're the experts.

I'll know more when I get it in a few days, but I thought that was kind of interesting and I figured I'd put it out there for comments. So comment.

 

[mmbongo]

Just found out something interesting...Seymour Duncan Custom Shop is making me an SPB-1 for my Yamaha 5-string that has the mismatched 3/2 coil config, and before they sent it, they wanted me to know they wouldn't be doing a typical cloth wiring like they do with the regular SPB-1.

I was told they substitute shielded Mogami wire for the usual wires because a P pickup with mismatched coils can't be made fully humbucking, so they use the shielded wire to make it as quiet as possible. Fine by me...they're the experts.

I'll know more when I get it in a few days, but I thought that was kind of interesting and I figured I'd put it out there for comments. So comment.

Interesting, and it makes sense I guess.

I wonder if this is why Aguilar's 5 string P pickups are both 'long' but the bottom one has less pole pieces. I assume the coils are the same.

 

[Blackjac97]

Well a normal P bass pickup has 4 poles on each split, presumably one for each string, on each split.

For a 5 string pickup, I would think it would stand to reason that they could do the same but with 5 poles on each split.

Maybe for aesthetics they are doing it their way instead? Or to achieve a very specific sound that can only be done 3+2?

I have absolutely 0 understanding of pickup design so I am ready to be as wrong as they come.

Edit: with the post above I saw what was meant by 3+2. I was thinking one pole per string, but I see how the aggie is broken up and I understand now.

 

[Flamingo21]

Well done, Jimmy, for making me jump up and run to my fiver to look at the P pickup. (I've had that bass for 2-1/2 years.)

Turns out the two string pickup cover is shorter than the other cover, but long enough that the coil inside it MAY be as long as the other coil.

My day just became a tiny bit more interesting.

 

[JimmyM]

Interesting, and it makes sense I guess.

I wonder if this is why Aguilar's 5 string P pickups are both 'long' but the bottom one has less pole pieces. I assume the coils are the same.

View attachment 4384235

If Duncan's long coil version of that pickup is any indication, then it's a 6-string pickup with a 5-string cover. They actually sent me one at first, and I had to send it back. I said it needs a 3/2 coil set but didn't specify one was normal and one was longer, unlike the Aggie. But the guy at Duncan was very cool about it and he thought they came long/short, too. Unfortunately I had to wait thru the 6 week rotation again, but I wasn't going anywhere so I didn't care.

I guess this changes my plans to use EMG pots and jack. I can't solder worth a crap, especially on pot ground wires. Looks like I'll have to, though.

 

[JimmyM]

BTW, I wasn't going to pop for an Apollo J in the bridge position at first, but I think I might. It's been a very quiet bass so far and the J pickup sounds decent to me, but it's not humbucking, plus the CS guy said the Apollo's what I want if I want humbucking, as the guy who designed it made it as close to the SJB-1 as he could but still be humbucking. Hope I can find one.

EDIT: Backordered unless I want to ship it from Italy, and I don't.

 

[JimmyM]

Well gee, I thought this thread would spur more discussion than this. I was expecting a big discussion about the sonic implications of using shielded wires or something along those lines. But I guess it's hard to argue with the folks at the Duncan Custom Shop.

 

[sunbeast]

There are a few different configurations of 5-string P pickups out there that require a different approach from each-other. A number of basses use standard 4-string P pickups for 5 strings, and in this case you can have 2 identical coils but without magnets under one half of the D/3rd string so that it's only being picked up by one of the two coils. There are also longer coil versions like the Aguilar pictured that are the same design but just wider spacing. Then Fender made a standard out of the short/long 2/3 coil split for most of their 5-string Ps and some other people followed suit- in this case they can't be hum-cancelling without creating a tone imbalance between the two halves. Same story goes for 5-string split-coil J pickups- most of them are not fully humcancelling as they must use a short/long coil design (I would assume the Area J is the same).

 

[JimmyM]

There are a few different configurations of 5-string P pickups out there that require a different approach from each-other. A number of basses use standard 4-string P pickups for 5 strings, and in this case you can have 2 identical coils but without magnets under one half of the D/3rd string so that it's only being picked up by one of the two coils. There are also longer coil versions like the Aguilar pictured that are the same design but just wider spacing. Then Fender made a standard out of the short/long 2/3 coil split for most of their 5-string Ps and some other people followed suit- in this case they can't be hum-cancelling without creating a tone imbalance between the two halves. Same story goes for 5-string split-coil J pickups- most of them are not fully humcancelling as they must use a short/long coil design (I would assume the Area J is the same).

That would only make sense if they use a split coil instead of a stack. On the other hand, the stock Yamaha P pickup is noise free, and it's just a BB235, their cheapest model (though it's surprisingly good for the money). So I think I'll be fine, eh?

 

[sunbeast]

That would only make sense if they use a split coil instead of a stack. On the other hand, the stock Yamaha P pickup is noise free, and it's just a BB235, their cheapest model (though it's surprisingly good for the money). So I think I'll be fine, eh?

I haven't heard of a stacked-coil P, as the P configuration normally makes that unnecessary by design and it would lose the characteristic P tone to a degree. The Area J is definitely a split-coil, though I've never tried the 5-string version. Either way the 2-3 split-coil pickup is still much more hum-cancelling than a single coil pickup and really probably not going to be problematic for most folks

 

[JimmyM]

I haven't heard of a stacked-coil P, as the P configuration normally makes that unnecessary by design and it would lose the characteristic P tone to a degree. The Area J is definitely a split-coil, though I've never tried the 5-string version. Either way the 2-3 split-coil pickup is still much more hum-cancelling than a single coil pickup and really probably not going to be problematic for most folks

Sorry...I meant a stacked coil J...wasn't specific enough.

 

[bigtone23]

The Wilde P46 is designed for either 4 or 5 string use. It's two exact same coils, each with 5 poles. The halves get spread out more for a 5, and smooshed up for a 4. What's a little odd is that the A & D sort of cross talk from both halves of the pickup. The angle is a little off, but you can see what I mean on my bass.
It's odd, but fully hum cancelling.

 

[JimmyM]

The Wilde P46 is designed for either 4 or 5 string use. It's two exact same coils, each with 5 poles. The halves get spread out more for a 5, and smooshed up for a 4. What's a little odd is that the A & D sort of cross talk from both halves of the pickup. The angle is a little off, but you can see what I mean on my bass.
It's odd, but fully hum cancelling.
View attachment 4384741

Now that is a totally new thing on me! What ends up with that crosstalk, though? I suppose it's not destructive interference, right?

 

[BlueTalon]

Same story goes for 5-string split-coil J pickups- most of them are not fully humcancelling as they must use a short/long coil design (I would assume the Area J is the same).

I have wondered about this. If I was having a set of 5-string J pickups made for me, I'd want to have one pickup wound 3-2, and the other wound 2-3. My theory is that the imbalance would offset. (I don't think the A string is going to care if it's not sensed by the same coil in both pickups.)

Which makes me wonder, now that I think about it, if they could do that same thing with a J and a P pickup set together. Well, they certainly could, but I don't know how effective it would be at canceling residual hum.

 

[BlueTalon]

Just found out something interesting...Seymour Duncan Custom Shop is making me an SPB-1 for my Yamaha 5-string that has the mismatched 3/2 coil config, and before they sent it, they wanted me to know they wouldn't be doing a typical cloth wiring like they do with the regular SPB-1.

I was told they substitute shielded Mogami wire for the usual wires because a P pickup with mismatched coils can't be made fully humbucking, so they use the shielded wire to make it as quiet as possible. Fine by me...they're the experts.

That would make me happy. I'm a fan of Mogami cable.

 

[sunbeast]

The Wilde P46 is designed for either 4 or 5 string use. It's two exact same coils, each with 5 poles. The halves get spread out more for a 5, and smooshed up for a 4. What's a little odd is that the A & D sort of cross talk from both halves of the pickup. The angle is a little off, but you can see what I mean on my bass.
It's odd, but fully hum cancelling.
View attachment 4384741

I've often wondered about these pickups in use on a 5-string, as my experience with other standard 4-string P pickups in a 5'er has not gone well. I've had a few cheap project 5-string basses with EMG 4-string PJ pickups and the D string was always terribly dull and lower volume vs the other strings.
There shouldn't be a way to balance that one string that is the only one equally in both magnetic fields like that.

 

[JimmyM]

That would make me happy. I'm a fan of Mogami cable.

I tend to just buy whatever's cheapest at Sam Ash that day.

I have wondered about this. If I was having a set of 5-string J pickups made for me, I'd want to have one pickup wound 3-2, and the other wound 2-3. My theory is that the imbalance would offset. (I don't think the A string is going to care if it's not sensed by the same coil in both pickups.)

Which makes me wonder, now that I think about it, if they could do that same thing with a J and a P pickup set together. Well, they certainly could, but I don't know how effective it would be at canceling residual hum.

I'm wondering if it's enough to where we'd even care, to be honest. My cheap little Yammy's quiet, and I know they're not using Mogami shielded wire for leads.

 

[JimmyM]

I've often wondered about these pickups in use on a 5-string, as my experience with other standard 4-string P pickups in a 5'er has not gone well. I've had a few cheap project 5-string basses with EMG 4-string PJ pickups and the D string was always terribly dull and lower volume vs the other strings.
There shouldn't be a way to balance that one string that is the only one equally in both magnetic fields like that.

Ya, that certainly seems like a recipe for something undesirable, but I'll give all due respect to Wilde. Bill Lawrence knew his stuff and wasn't afraid to do weird things. I'm definitely not looking to get experimental with this Yammy bass, though. I was interested in getting it right the first time and making a workhorse out of my pretty little cheapo Yamaha that sounds as close to my PJ's with Geezers as I can get without spending a fortune:

 

[Flamingo21]

Gee, Jimmy, that's funny. A Yamaha BB235, right? The bass I was referring to is its exact predecessor, the BB415.

 

[BlueTalon]

I'm wondering if it's enough to where we'd even care, to be honest. My cheap little Yammy's quiet, and I know they're not using Mogami shielded wire for leads.

That's a good point. The 3-2 split is already a (mostly) hum-canceling design, my ideas address the bit of potential hum that's not already canceled.

That said, I'm a huge fan of silence, and even a little bit of unwanted noise can drive me batty.