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A Challenge to Pedal Makers Everywhere
- Thread starter cssbass
- Start date
Eric!
Commercial User
I think the only real room left is in the wild, whacky and extreme noise makers, which greatly limits the sales to those looking for wild and whacky extreme noise makers.
Those looking for subtlety and sound 'enhancing' effects are the mainstream and why the majority of pedal makers target variants of existing effects.
IMHO.
Those looking for subtlety and sound 'enhancing' effects are the mainstream and why the majority of pedal makers target variants of existing effects.
IMHO.
I think there's some interesting things happening with envelope controlled effects, but still more room to expand. The Strymon Ola Chorus offers envelope control of the depth, which is super cool. I'd love to see a delay where the delay time was controlled by your playing- short delay times for quiet playing, long delay times for louder playing. Could be very interesting. Or how about an envelope control on octave to adjust the clean blend- harder you play, the wetter the signal gets?
i don't know if you are big into effects on the computer, but REAPER has envelope controlled parameters, where you can pick whatever parameter you'd like on any VST effect and set it to modulate to an LFO, audio signal or you can link it to a different parameter so if you change the time of a delay, it'll also change the feedback level and so on (which you could also set to follow your envelope, so both parameters are controlled by your playing!)
I like the idea of envelope following, but i think that for the flexibility I would like, computer based effects seem like the way to go in both abilities and affordability
anything available in a plugin that isn't in a pedal yet. multiband compression, MaxxBass®, multivoice chorus...
Yeah, I think the infinite tweakibility of computer-based effects programs is a great place for builders of more traditional, on-the-floor stomp boxes to find ideas. I mentioned the Strymon chorus, and the Foxrox TZF offers envelope flanging. I just think with the amount of parameters we can control on so many pedals, and knowing that you can really have any of those parameters be controlled by an envelope that there are so many cool (and possibly even useful) variations to be discovered.
Yeah, that 2290 is a killer delay unit, which is probably why they're going for $1,800 on the 'bay.
Seems it would be easy for EHX or someone to put an envelope control on the the "Delay" parameter on a Deluxe Memory Boy or the like.
what i'd definitely buy is a machine or a comupter that listens to the drum beat and converts it to midi clock. seriously i'd love to have my delays, flangers, stutters and filter sweeps modulated with midi clock so i could do electro stuff without having to be always afraid of the drummer speeding up like a tenth of an eight of a note and ruining the sonic architecture :/ also i would love to have:
-more of the above pedals with midi clock
-a decent pedal which contains: a tracking vco, a filter section, two lfos, an adsr, a vca, octave up and down and cv in and out together with midi clock sync for the lfos
and finally, a really decent sustainer
-more of the above pedals with midi clock
-a decent pedal which contains: a tracking vco, a filter section, two lfos, an adsr, a vca, octave up and down and cv in and out together with midi clock sync for the lfos
and finally, a really decent sustainer
smllsnd/bigsnd
Commercial User
- Mar 18, 2009
- 134
- 150
- Disclosures
- owner, smallsound/bigsound
just sayin... it probably won't happen.
i think at this point it's impossible to create an entirely *new* effect. the really interesting things that people are making now are ideas that combine ideas and elements from different pedals to make something different, rather than new.
here's a random idea using different ideas that probably isn't available:
panned high/low reverb with cross feedback and dynamically modulated reverb length.
*it would use an LFO to pan between two separate reverberated outputs, (one with a LPF, one with a HPF) .
*each output would feedback to the other's input.
*the reverb length would vary based on the playing dynamics.
that is a different implementation, but certainly isn't new. it's still a reverb. if you want to hear/use unique stuff, you'll probably need to look at software-based stuff like max/msp, reaktor, soundhack, csound and various esoteric plug-ins. also take a look at modular synths - the ability to re-route both audio, voltage and/or midi is what makes them so deep.
i think at this point it's impossible to create an entirely *new* effect. the really interesting things that people are making now are ideas that combine ideas and elements from different pedals to make something different, rather than new.
here's a random idea using different ideas that probably isn't available:
panned high/low reverb with cross feedback and dynamically modulated reverb length.
*it would use an LFO to pan between two separate reverberated outputs, (one with a LPF, one with a HPF) .
*each output would feedback to the other's input.
*the reverb length would vary based on the playing dynamics.
that is a different implementation, but certainly isn't new. it's still a reverb. if you want to hear/use unique stuff, you'll probably need to look at software-based stuff like max/msp, reaktor, soundhack, csound and various esoteric plug-ins. also take a look at modular synths - the ability to re-route both audio, voltage and/or midi is what makes them so deep.
Taylor Livingston
Commercial User
Just from playing around with math in DSP, I have accidentally created lots of weird effects that were unique - but they would all probably be described as being similar to effects that already exist, even when they came about due to random math. If you do any static input-output transformation to a waveform, it will sound like some kind of distortion, no matter how obscure. If you do any kind of periodic transform, it will like something in the realm of phaser/filters, etc.
The problem isn't exactly that there are no new effects, but that the language of categories of effects has developed such that any new effect can be described with existing language.
It's possible to do some truly far-out stuff, but as a lot of people have said, once you get to the point of sounds unique enough not to sound like a variation of an existing effect (and really, it still will be, just obscured enough that it won't be obvious), the effects are too specific and strange to be useful in almost anybody's music. So, to reiterate what previous posters have said, spending way more time on R+D, to sell almost zero units, isn't something that most designers/builders can afford, even if they enjoy doing wacky stuff.
But, the good news is that there is a lot of middle ground between clones of old pedals, and totally new effects types, and happily, we're seeing lots of really unique and interesting new effects these days from a variety of companies/builders, even if they can still be described as inhabiting old categories.
The problem isn't exactly that there are no new effects, but that the language of categories of effects has developed such that any new effect can be described with existing language.
It's possible to do some truly far-out stuff, but as a lot of people have said, once you get to the point of sounds unique enough not to sound like a variation of an existing effect (and really, it still will be, just obscured enough that it won't be obvious), the effects are too specific and strange to be useful in almost anybody's music. So, to reiterate what previous posters have said, spending way more time on R+D, to sell almost zero units, isn't something that most designers/builders can afford, even if they enjoy doing wacky stuff.
But, the good news is that there is a lot of middle ground between clones of old pedals, and totally new effects types, and happily, we're seeing lots of really unique and interesting new effects these days from a variety of companies/builders, even if they can still be described as inhabiting old categories.
TC's new FlashBack has a Dynamic Delay from the 2290. Slightly less expensive, but I don't know how it compares to the original.
Another point that no one has brought up is that most of big effects categories that we have were born out of accident or nature, and not premeditated invention. Distortion came from people turning up amps too loud and thinking that it sounded cool. Flange came from someone touching a tape machine during play back and getting a cool sound. Chorus, reverb and echo(delay) are all things that existed before we even had electricity. There is a backstory for every effect, and like music, they are all based on something that the "inventor" had heard before.
I don't know if these guys were mentioned, but CopilotFX is doing some pretty wacky stuff.. and Hexe is also pushing bitcrushers into new territory. Or look at the Goatkeeper - that's a whole lot more than just a trem..
caeman said:
I have the Flashback - great delay. But the Dynamic setting just quiets the delay feedback when you play, and brings it back up when you're not.
rsmith601
Commercial User
- Apr 14, 2009
- 4,461
- 8,356
- Disclosures
- CEO and Co-Founder, Source Audio
Back when I was idealistic I thought it would be great to bring some real innovation to the effects market. We came up with Hot Hand as our first product. We not only delivered a completely unique means of controlling filter sweeps, but put it in a package with all kinds of very unique multipeak filters. We also put it in a highly artistic new package style. The response from the market:
"Cool, but not for me."
We then made is wireless, small, and easy to use. The response from the market:
"I want to sound like Hendrix at Woodstock."
We then created the Hot Hand Phaser/Flanger. A few high profile people still love it deeply, but few were sold in the beginning.
We next created the Multiwave distortion. With ten separate distortion bands and the use of foldback distortion curves this pedal delivered one of the most unique new set of sounds ever in a pedal. We sold more than Hot Hand, but again this pedal was not well understood in the face of those seeking to channel Eddie V. and SRV.
The Bass version of the Multiwave was when things started to change. Bass players found this new palette of sounds to be fresh and exciting. We then did a Pro version and our first BEF. Bass players then discovered Hot Hand. Now, finally our new ideas are being accepted after 7 years of hard work and investment.
We are completely dedicated to bringing fresh thinking to the effects market with our great engineering team. Sometimes it will be a really fresh take on the old things, but new sounds will always be a key part of the mission.
If not for the open-mindedness of bass players, there would not be a Source Audio.
I keep telling you all that hard digital clipping sounds great.
Much more to come!!!
"Cool, but not for me."
We then made is wireless, small, and easy to use. The response from the market:
"I want to sound like Hendrix at Woodstock."
We then created the Hot Hand Phaser/Flanger. A few high profile people still love it deeply, but few were sold in the beginning.
We next created the Multiwave distortion. With ten separate distortion bands and the use of foldback distortion curves this pedal delivered one of the most unique new set of sounds ever in a pedal. We sold more than Hot Hand, but again this pedal was not well understood in the face of those seeking to channel Eddie V. and SRV.
The Bass version of the Multiwave was when things started to change. Bass players found this new palette of sounds to be fresh and exciting. We then did a Pro version and our first BEF. Bass players then discovered Hot Hand. Now, finally our new ideas are being accepted after 7 years of hard work and investment.
We are completely dedicated to bringing fresh thinking to the effects market with our great engineering team. Sometimes it will be a really fresh take on the old things, but new sounds will always be a key part of the mission.
If not for the open-mindedness of bass players, there would not be a Source Audio.
I keep telling you all that hard digital clipping sounds great.
Much more to come!!!
i want a bass pedal that can make those techno drum sounds!
those big TUGGGG PHAAAAKKK ... like a Nine Inch Nails record
those big TUGGGG PHAAAAKKK ... like a Nine Inch Nails record
I don't own any of your pedals, so perhaps this isn't necessarily an appropriate statement, but when I hear responses like those you heard at first, to me it's indicative of how only very artistic players (I mean that in a cutting edge kinda of way; I'm not saying if you're in a cover band or whatnot you're not artistic, as there are all kinds of artists; I'm just saying that it is a certain kind of artist that takes a new concept and creates a space in the popular imagination for it to occupy..) will be able to find a place for it.
Whole new genres have been created around effects, to the point where sometimes a new effect is almost an instrument unto itself, and that takes time to integrate: rock and overdrive, for example, or country and tremolo (ok, a bit of a stretch but you know where I'm going), or Creed and flangers.
It also reminds me of another quote I heard recently but I have no idea to whom I should attribute it: the louder the critics, the bigger the idea. And criticism doesn't always come in protest - in my experience, the worst kind of criticism is a lukewarm response or curiosity that leads nowhere.
In any event, I'm grateful for builders like yourself, for builders like Adam at Copilot (whose building a custom trigger for me right now), or Todd at Endangered Audio (who might not be creating something NEW per se, but is, as the name suggests, working to preserve certain bygone designs which have been lost to progress and new technology).
THIS.
I look at something as wicked as the Lightfoot Goatkeeper, and I think something like this is not too.. impossible. In fact, I think Boss made a trigger back in the 80s that could be expanded upon.
But maybe that's now NEW new, as per the OP...
But it would sure get my attention!
PS - I don't know if you were being facetious, but even if you were, you've got a goldmine of an idea there. Imagine a percussive envelope/attack filter with analog (or digital) parameters for basic soundforms, which could be altered along some sort of dynamic EQ/sustain/attack variables.. add in a programmable sequencer (a la the Goatkeeper) and a small memory bank, and you've got one powerful instrument in a box.
