Double Bass A Couple of Beginner Questions

[dpok]

Hello All,

I can hear when I get more bow pressure on the strings I am coaxing the sound out of the bass. I don't know of a way to get more bow pressure than by just plain pushing harder. I asked my teacher if I am doing something wrong or if I just need to "crossfit it out"? I was surprised when he said I just need to build the muscles and crossfit it out. He doesn't look like he is working it very hard and he gets great sound. I still feel like I am missing something. Please let me know what you think. I often don't practice as long as I would like because my bow hand is done.

Also, we are using the Vance book. I see the idea is using songs that are familiar so you can hear if you are playing in tune. That is fine, but I am old and I would like to play something that apeals to me in additional to Go Tell Aunt Rosy and the like. Any ideas for some less kid like stuff and still very easy?

Thanks for your help,
Dave

 

[CaseyVancouver]

Are you playing French bow?
If you get a tired thumb you can temporarily play underhand to recover a bit.
Or throw in some pizz for a moment.

A faster bow can increase volume.

Embrace Vance. Vance is awesome. Don’t be distracted by his choice of pieces. You will get many opportunities to play heavy serious angry bass parts down the road. I recall a famous concert violinist saying something along the lines of ‘even twinkle twinkle little star takes talent to play beautifully’.

I especially like how Vance introduces thumb position early so you won’t have a hang up about it later.
And he includes some Rabbath concepts. Brilliant.

 

[dpok]

I am playing French. Switching to pizz for a hand break is a good idea rather than using it for a convenient excuse to cut practicing short.

 

[jsf729]

I am playing French. Switching to pizz for a hand break is a good idea rather than using it for a convenient excuse to cut practicing short.

You may want to consider German bow. I find it easier as the weight of your arm naturally puts more pressure on the strings without using any muscles IMO

 

[BassFalcon]

These help;

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it makes the stick bigger where you grip it so you are less likely to squeeze real hard.

also, there’s 3 elements to the bow, placement (how close or far to bridge), weight, speed. Your arm weighs at least 5lbs. At least. Take a 5lb sack of flour and rest it on your strings (mentally). What I’m getting at is that your arm weighs enough to provide all the weight your bow needs, you don’t need to grip tight and push down. All 3 factors are in balance, less weight equals more speed, etc etc. hope that helps, best of luck!

 

[David Potts]

Could you post a picture or three of your bow hold. This alone could be the cause of discomfort, tiring and pain. As BassFalcon says the three basic variables used to produce sound with the bow of either kind, French or German, are Bow Weight, Bow Speed and Distance from the Bridge. Understanding how to combine and mix these variables and using a good bow hold and arm movements should enable you to produce a big sound without pressing hard on the strings. Too much pressure is counterproductive because it both tires your hand and crushes string vibrations rather than encouraging them. Too little weight with too much length might cause skidding over the strings, not engaging with and controlling them.

I would suggest that you approach sound production and note starts/stops as part of your warm up. Take care with your bow hair tension. Too tight and the hair skids, making note starts in either direction difficult. Too slack and the sound is noticeably more "mushy" and weaker. This can be a matter of half a turn either way depending on the qualities of the bow. My starting point with tensioning is to just play three strings at once when the hair is pressed to the middle of the stick. This is the maximum weight I will theoretically use and from here I experiment with half or quarter turns up and down to optimise the grab on the string note starts using relaxed arm weight ( don't think pressure).

One warm up I employ is vary note lengths and speeds while keeping the tone, volume and musicality of a note constant. Long slow notes need long bows and, vice versa, short fast notes need very little length. Using relaxed arm weight to rest on, say, the D string or its F then draw the bow from side to side with the hair bent gently over the string and not lifting at each end, very simply just turning the corner and letting the change of direction grab each note start. Once you work this out then then make an exercise of long slow bows/notes contacting to short/fast notes at the balance point of the bow stick and then broadening out again.

I do understand jsf729's suggestion about swapping to German bow. Even holding your French bow like German should demonstrate the natural feeling of using the weight of your arm and your bow hold like a "hook", not pressing with your index finger and cramping your hand. A good French bow hold should be much of the answer IMO.

There are other factors such as bow and bass qualities, brands of string and rosin, etc, etc that will make it easier or not to produce a big sound and the past Threads posted in the Forums are a valuable source of advice about these, but for now work with what you have.

Bless you, TalkBass !!

 

[PaulCannon]

Hello All,

I can hear when I get more bow pressure on the strings I am coaxing the sound out of the bass. I don't know of a way to get more bow pressure than by just plain pushing harder. I asked my teacher if I am doing something wrong or if I just need to "crossfit it out"? I was surprised when he said I just need to build the muscles and crossfit it out.

That’s not good advice, and I hope that’s not what they meant.

Instead of “pressure”, think about “weight”. A relaxed arm is quite heavy on its own, and if that weight is leveraged with a healthy, slightly forward posture you can easily crush the strings without using muscle strength. It’s more than enough.

 

[dpok]

Hello David, Paul, Casey, Bassfalcon and all,

From the suggestions on your post, I adjusted my bow tension (I had waay too much). That has made a significant difference. I have been practicing using more arm weight than squeezing pressure which has also helped both my sound and hand fatique. Both of these have also helped my mental approach as the way I was approaching it just didn't seem right.

Thanks for your help.

 

[fu22ba55]

Here's how I stopped using the DEATH GRIP when holding the french bow:

1) Watch this awesome video about bow articulation:

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The key for me was this:
- set the metronome at 40bpm (goal is to make the string speak each time it clicks)
- "cock" the string like notching an arrow (so the hair grabs the string before it speaks)
- make the string speak
- cock the string again (for the next note), but don't make it speak
- RELAX 100% and WAIT for the next metronome click (while still keeping the hair cocked on the string)

The goal is to relax your arm and hand between notes while keeping the hair "cocked" on the string

2) Once you've gotten the hang of the above exercise: step it up with 2 and 3 notes (RIBBITS and DIG IT UP (triplets))

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCm8GGGdysZnlbgVytdIVjDg/videos

This entire channel is chock full of great practice advice, but his RIBBIT (two 16th notes) and DIG IT UP (triplet) exercises are GREAT for learning how to make the string speak quickly, then instantly RELAX your grip and arm between notes.

You should eventually be able to do these exercises (ribbits, and triplets) while BARELY holding your bow, and with the least possible amount of bow hair tension.

I do the single notes for about 5 minutes, then RIBBITS for 5 minutes, then triplets.

Your arm should be 100% DEAD and RELAXED between notes. Barely holding the bow.

It worked wonders for me.