A couple of beginner's IEM questions

[PatTheDog]

I'd like to take a tentative step towards using IEMs for live use. A few things to point out:

• I play in an large, loud, and very amateur band where everyone wants to hear themselves loudest
• Typically I'm playing cramped stages with limited monitoring capabilities, and very few options for positioning my amp optimally
• I want to protect my ears while being able to hear myself well - musicians earplugs don't always work well for me
• I would be the only person playing with IEMs so I'll still have an amp on stage

I've been experimenting using a Zoom B1 purely as a makeshift headphone amp connected to the effects send on my bass amp. I know the orthodox method is to have a full-band mix in the IEMs, but honestly there's enough ambient leakage to hear the band just fine (I'm inches away from a drummer, percussionist, loud guitar amp and 10 piece horn section), and the overall reduction seems on par with ear plugs.

Now I'm ready to replace the Zoom B1 with a proper headphone amp. I'm on a budget so counting out the wireless options for now. One solution would be a Behringer P2 with a cable run from my amp's effect send.

So my questions are:

1. Have other players been using IEMs in this way (to monitor their bass rather than a full band mix)? How did it work out in the long run?
2. Instead of running a cable to the Behringer P2, is there a headphone amp that I could connect directly to my instrument output and that has a through connector to go to my amp (which in turn has a DI out for the larger gigs where there's a PA)? That way there'd be one less cable on the floor. I found the Rolls PM55P, but would prefer something smaller that can be clipped to my belt or bass strap.

 

[s0c9]

If you just need “more me” in your IEM’s then the P2 is the simplest route.
It will also work if at some point in the future you get a full mix from the mixer - the bands or FOH.
No extra cost.. P2 and XLR cable.
Keep the volume as low as you can. Save your hearing.

Also, get decent buds, not single driver ones.
The KZ universal series (ZS5, ZS6, AS10, 16 pro’s,…) on Amazon are a great bang for the buck, assuming universal fit work for you.
You’ll get better isolation with customs, but a decent set of those will probably break the budget!

 

[Chris Chong]

sub.

 

[PatTheDog]

The KZ universal series (ZS5, ZS6, AS10, 16 pro’s,…) on Amazon are a great bang for the buck, assuming universal fit work for you.

Thanks. I'm leaning towards the Linsoul 7Hz Salnotes Zero which seem absurdly affordable. Are you familiar with those? I've read that frequencies around 63hz can also be damaging, so I don't want anything too bass heavy. And I'll still be feeling plenty of lows from my amp, albeit usually aimed at my knees.

 

[djmay]

I use a Zoom Livetrak L6 with an ambience mic in channel 1. It also has a recorder.

 

[tshapiro]

I find a simple 2 channel mixer where I can run 1 channel me and 1 ambient mic is good. If there’s vox, then putting the ambient mic near a monitor that has vox can be helpful. But, I do find the ambient mic is a big help. The other approach is you can connect the ‘ambient’ side into a powered monitor’s XLR our, or a passive monitor out as long as you use a CountryMan like Direct Box that can take a speaker level signal and drop it to mic level. So, a small mixer, ambient mic, and CountryMan DI is quiet simple and will have you covered for any situation.

 

[Johnny Crab]

Had the same issue when a VERY LOUD keys/guitarist was to my right side for years.
Got a small Behringer mixer. Ch1 FOH Left, Ch 2 FOH right, Ch 3 XLR bass from HELIX, Ch 4 split off my vocal mic(<left muted unless I was singing OR if I actually needed any stage feed).
Signal path after mixer: >Behringer 3220(used as a limiter to prevent accidental hearing damage)>MiPro 909 IEM with Fender or InEarGear earbuds.
Behringer MULTIBAND DYNAMICS PROCESSOR SPL3220 Stereo Multiband Sound Processor/Loudness Maximizer/Limiter Black : Musical Instruments < these also work nicely on home entertainment systems that have BIG speakers
MIPRO MI909 MI-909 Wireless In Ear Monitor System < amazing quality
FCS11Bass $129 < earbuds

 

[Wasnex]

So my questions are:

1. Have other players been using IEMs in this way (to monitor their bass rather than a full band mix)? How did it work out in the long run?
2. Instead of running a cable to the Behringer P2, is there a headphone amp that I could connect directly to my instrument output and that has a through connector to go to my amp (which in turn has a DI out for the larger gigs where there's a PA)? That way there'd be one less cable on the floor. I found the Rolls PM55P, but would prefer something smaller that can be clipped to my belt or bass strap.

Not sure if this is clear. You need IEMs that seal in the ear canal for good bass and volume mitigation.

Yes there are TB members who do this and are reasonably happy. It would not make me happy. An enhancement over this would be something like a Rolls PM351. The PM351 is sort of a combination of audio tools bodged together in an fairly cheap package. It's not small. The PM351 is basically a three input mixer, headphone amp, DI, and mic splitter. I don't believe it has an instrument level thru, so you will need to figure out what sort of patching would give you the desired functionality...I am certain there is a way.

The mixer part of the PM351 gives you control over a mic input, line input, and instrument input. The mic input is split and sent out on XLR with no modification. You have level control for your needs. The instrument input is also split and sent out on XLR with no modification and you have level control for your needs. The line input is "in" only, no output. You can adjust the level.

The PM351 does not provide any EQ or protective limiting.

If you sing, you will probably want to use the mic input for your voice. If you don't sing, you could use the Rolls mic input to pickup the band. Or if the full band is going through the FOH mixer, you could ask for a monitor feed and plug it into the line input on the PM351.

 

[mdogs]

Not sure if this is clear. You need IEMs that seal in the ear canal for good bass and volume mitigation.

Yes there are TB members who do this and are reasonably happy. It would not make me happy. An enhancement over this would be something like a Rolls PM351. The PM351 is sort of a combination of audio tools bodged together in an fairly cheap package. It's not small. The PM351 is basically a three input mixer, headphone amp, DI, and mic splitter. I don't believe it has an instrument level thru, so you will need to figure out what sort of patching would give you the desired functionality...I am certain there is a way.

The mixer part of the PM351 gives you control over a mic input, line input, and instrument input. The mic input is split and sent out on XLR with no modification. You have level control for your needs. The instrument input is also split and sent out on XLR with no modification and you have level control for your needs. The line input is "in" only, no output. You can adjust the level.

The PM351 does not provide any EQ or protective limiting.

If you sing, you will probably want to use the mic input for your voice. If you don't sing, you could use the Rolls mic input to pickup the band. Or if the full band is going through the FOH mixer, you could ask for a monitor feed and plug it into the line input on the PM351.

This exactly. If your IEM's seal enough to hear your bass well, then you will not be able to hear everything else well without some other form of input for your IEM's.

 

[s0c9]

Thanks. I'm leaning towards the Linsoul 7Hz Salnotes Zero which seem absurdly affordable. Are you familiar with those? I've read that frequencies around 63hz can also be damaging, so I don't want anything too bass heavy. And I'll still be feeling plenty of lows from my amp, albeit usually aimed at my knees.

My only issue with them - I've not tried them - is that they are single driver buds. I recommend/suggest triple (3) or more drivers for bass. You get better audio separation and less ear fatigue with more drivers. You can also adjust specific frequency ranges without impacting the others. For example, you can boost/cut bass without impacting the other ranges. That's tougher with a single driver as it's reproducing the entire spectrum.

 

[waveman]

You don't need an amp on stage. The IEM's with only bass in them will save your ears.

I have Xvive Wireless IEM coming out of my DI Pedal 1/4" and XLR goes to FOH. Connecrt $50 CCA 12 IEM's to the XVive reciever. I also have wireless instrument to pedalboard. I carry my bass, pedal board, and IEM's to gigs. That's it

 

[Hasty]

You don't need an amp on stage. The IEM's with only bass in them will save your ears.

In his last bullet point he said no one else in the band uses IEMs... so if they wanna hear him then he needs an amp. I'm guessing they don't run monitor mixes for the rest of the band.

 

[Altitude]

This exactly. If your IEM's seal enough to hear your bass well, then you will not be able to hear everything else well without some other form of input for your IEM's.

The notion of running one IEM channel for the bass and a second for an ambient mic seems like it might work in this situation, though I’ve never tried it. If nothing else, that would give the ability to lower your perceived stage volume to a manageable level.

There’s a certain club in Denver that is shoebox-shaped with the stage facing across the shorter dimension and at one end. And there is a wall-sized mirror opposite the stage, probably 20 feet from its front edge. This club has a house PA and can be excruciatingly loud, and the mirror plays havoc with the acoustics. Using amps in there, I’ve experienced threshold shift where notes sound out of tune owing to the volume. This sort of approach would be great in there.

 

[Enrique M]

Not necessarily IEM related, but a band mate gave me a On Stage tilt back amp stand. That thing did wonders for my ability to hear myself. I actually had to turn down from my typical volume. Footprint is slightly bigger than the amp alone because of the tilt.

 

[waveman]

In his last bullet point he said no one else in the band uses IEMs... so if they wanna hear him then he needs an amp. I'm guessing they don't run monitor mixes for the rest of the band.

Ahh, in that case run IEM from DI out XLR and 1/4 to the amp

 

[Lefty Joe]

I guess I'm the only person whose immediate response was: you need to be in a different band.

 

[turf3]

...

There’s a certain club in Denver that is shoebox-shaped with the stage facing across the shorter dimension and at one end. And there is a wall-sized mirror opposite the stage, probably 20 feet from its front edge. This club has a house PA and can be excruciatingly loud, and the mirror plays havoc with the acoustics. Using amps in there, I’ve experienced threshold shift where notes sound out of tune owing to the volume. This sort of approach would be great in there.

My approach would be to leave.

Too old for that stuff.

 

[Wasnex]

The notion of running one IEM channel for the bass and a second for an ambient mic seems like it might work in this situation, though I’ve never tried it.

If you mean bass left and ambient mic right, no this is a bad idea. There are a couple of reasons.
1. When you hear sound equally in both ears, you benefit from something called binaural summation. The result is the sound is perceived as 6dB louder. As you start to pan the sound to one side, you loose the benefit of binaural summation, so eventually you need to turn up 6dB to achieve the same perceive volume.
2. The lowest frequencies are considered omnidirectional. Hard panning bass sounds unnatural and disorienting to me. YMMV of course, but since our ears are less sensitive to lows than mids, it's good idea to take advantage of binaural summation.

If you mean mixing bass and an ambient mic to mono, so it's equally loud in both ears. That's better than hard panning, but not as good as a stereo mix with the bass in the center. I suggest panning most mid range and HF instruments in 3-5dB intervals left and right up to about 15dB. You may choose to pan a bit harder but not much. An exception would be a good stereo reverb. Stereo reverb should provide a continuous sound field across the acoustic horizon. You may be able to hard pan a stereo reverb, but not necessarily. It depends on the reverb. If the reverb starts to disappear in the center, you've panned too hard. Another exception could be a pair of close-spaced drum overheads. Probably still won't pan harder than about 20dB L/R IME.

 

[Altitude]

If you mean bass left and ambient mic right, no this is a bad idea. There are a couple of reasons.
1. When you hear sound equally in both ears, you benefit from something called binaural summation. The result is the sound is perceived as 6dB louder. As you start to pan the sound to one side, you loose the benefit of binaural summation, so eventually you need to turn up 6dB to achieve the same perceive volume.
2. The lowest frequencies are considered omnidirectional. Hard panning bass sounds unnatural and disorienting to me. YMMV of course, but since our ears are less sensitive to lows than mids, it's good idea to take advantage of binaural summation.

If you mean mixing bass and an ambient mic to mono, so it's equally loud in both ears. That's better than hard panning, but not as good as a stereo mix with the bass in the center. I suggest panning most mid range and HF instruments in 3-5dB intervals left and right up to about 15dB. You may choose to pan a bit harder but not much. An exception would be a good stereo reverb. Stereo reverb should provide a continuous sound field across the acoustic horizon. You may be able to hard pan a stereo reverb, but not necessarily. It depends on the reverb. If the reverb starts to disappear in the center, you've panned too hard. Another exception could be a pair of close-spaced drum overheads. Probably still won't pan harder than about 20dB L/R IME.

I hadn’t thought about the panning. I was just envisioning using IEMs as earplugs but feeding them a volume-controllable substitute for the stage volume. But yes, hard-panned anything would seem distracting.

 

[Altitude]

My approach would be to leave.

Too old for that stuff.

Like, you’d pack up your stuff and leave? Would you wait until the end of the first set or just bail after the first tune?