A Faster S.S. Head?

[okcrum]

Especially my wrong notes! Those seem to be the fastest to come right out.

Brilliant. And ditto.

 

[chadds]

It's cool if we are trying to coin a new phrase to describe this effect.
I do find it tiring when the factions show up to say you don't hear or experience what you do.
A driver told me her car handled better when she underinflated the tires. That was her experience. Perhaps at 15 mph it felt like it "held" the road better.
I knew from my experience that this was unsafe, uneconomical etc. Also pro drivers will overinflate tires temporarily on production cars as they handle better at high speeds. Caveat here! With the pro driver's skills.
All this to say. I respected her experience. I like mine respected.
I love that you factions protect us from snake oil salesman. Yet you seem to ignore that when I choose one amp & cab over another it fits my tone goals and how I touch the strings. I may be wrong in why it does. (the tens are punchier than fifteens)(and I thank you all for clearing that up) Yet, you can't tell me that I don't experience a difference. It diminishes your respectability when you can't help the consumer/fellow player figure out why when there is a cause and effect. Like boosted mids or sealed cab etc. causing punchy.

 

[1n3]

It's cool if we are trying to coin a new phrase to describe this effect.

What effect? (here lies the problem)

I do find it tiring when the factions show up to say you don't hear or experience what you do.

I haven't seen anyone say that here.

I think this is just a situation where language doesn't work well. Like describing the taste of food, without a shared experience.

 

[DavePlaysBass]

Msecs, inaudible? I guess we should go tell that to the vocalist and guitarist who use reverb and delay units.

Filters that work on the audio filter range do not allow the signals to pass through at the speed of light. Does the 2 msec time constant of a 40 Hz filter translate into something one hears? What if one guy designs his low pass section with a differnt phase response and more poles and zeroes. It seems plausible a slower response or one with excessive phase lag relative to the other frequencies could give a reverb type response that sounds thicker to some but muddier to others. And if speakers are responding at the speed of light, I guess all of use fuel injector guys should be looking at speaker magnetics to actuate fuel.

 

[Red Planet]

Well without all the Piss and Vinegar.

I am just very fortunate that Genz Benz had the for site to make the Shuttle 9.0 and the Streamliner 900. Both these amps cover the SS and the Tube world for me.

 

[okcrum]

Msecs, inaudible? I guess we should go tell that to the vocalist and guitarist who use reverb and delay units.

Filters that work on the audio filter range do not allow the signals to pass through at the speed of light. Does the 2 msec time constant of a 40 Hz filter translate into something one hears? What if one guy designs his low pass section with a differnt phase response and more poles and zeroes. It seems plausible a slower response or one with excessive phase lag relative to the other frequencies could give a reverb type response that sounds thicker to some but muddier to others. And if speakers are responding at the speed of light, I guess all of use fuel injector guys should be looking at speaker magnetics to actuate fuel.

Well, this is at least in the ballpark with what I was trying to get at. The disconnect seems to happen when folks equate these effects to playing faster than the amp can respond. Personally, I can't quite play a note every 100 ms, let alone every 20-50 ms. where I'd really hear the effect of the filter you describe. I also can't hear a 2 ms delay between playing a note and hearing it. Otherwise, I couldn't lock up with a drummer more than 2 feet away, given the speed of sound in air. I agree, the effects are real, but the popularly given reasons aren't the real ones. Every circuit at every frequency causes delay, but delay is very likely not the reason the amps sound different to the OP.

EDIT: correction, 40 Hz filter is a 25 ms time constant, not 2.

EDIT 2: The range of filter delay depends on the filter. It could be as low as 2 ms in a simple filter, and as high as 20-25 ms in a complex one of the right topology.

 

[BogeyBass]

The disconnect seems to happen when folks equate these effects to playing faster than the amp can respond.

When people say "slow" i tend to not think of it as the speed of the speaker. that all changes depending on the note, and if the speaker was actually moving slower. then it would just make your note sound out of tune. so its not a delay thing or actual cone movement thing.

Its more of a thing with fast and hard players, that hear their amp give out a little when playing alot of fast notes. Especially alot of fast low notes.

So when your amp "sags" a little or gets "mushy" on some note passages. Its very much a amplifier power supply. So when a huge current peak comes in for a series of fast notes. Each asking for a huge spike of current. A cheapo power supply, or a limited amount of supply capacitors might note be able to produce enough current for a bunch of fast peaking notes. Simply not enough reserve or time to fill the caps back up with enough energy.

 

[DavePlaysBass]

Maybe the GK and Ampeg power amps sections are equal to the ear. Or maybe the OP is hearing something that is explainable. I have not worked the equations. If someone has, please share.

In the engineering field many of the "interesting findings" are the ones no one calculated ahead of time.

Combine preamp phase delays effecting the frequency spectrum differently (variable group delay) with a damping factor that is also a function of frequency it seems plausible that some of this may be audible. Pariticularly in the response and tightness department.

Damping factor should be "tighter" with an 8 ohm cab relative to a 4 ohm cab if keeping all the variables constant. But if the cabs have speakers with different ratio of frequency dependent impedances, that could be an additional factor muddying the waters (pun intended).

The delay between a bass player and a drummer would have constant group delay. All the frequencies would be delayed or ahead by the same amount (at least at the finger to string interface and the foot on the kick). So when you try to push the beat by getting just a smidge ahead of the kick drum. Or you try to pull back the easily excited drummer by playing a smidge behind him. Whats the level of delay here in time? And how does that sound coming out of the PA?

 

[GrowlerBox]

I do find it tiring when the factions show up to say you don't hear or experience what you do.

I don't think anyone's trying to tell you what you're hearing, just that the reason you are hearing it isn't what you thought it was.

Validating everything everyone says no matter how ill-informed isn't respectful; on the other hand, for someone in possession of a degree of expertise to take the time out to correct a misconception and explain why it's a misconception is the height of respect.

 

[chadds]

I don't think anyone's trying to tell you what you're hearing, just that the reason you are hearing it isn't what you thought it was.

Validating everything everyone says no matter how ill-informed isn't respectful; on the other hand, for someone in possession of a degree of expertise to take the time out to correct a misconception and explain why it's a misconception is the height of respect.

You only quoted part of my tome.
Yes, folks are saying there us no such thing as quick. Our adjective may not be accurate but our experience of feel is not our imagination.

Science can explain our experience.
Of course you don't validate misinformation. You do however respect the holder of such info. You are 5 years old. Your parents take you to the doctor with a stomach ache. He doesnt tell you that your stomach doesn't hurt. He brings out what your experience is. You say it's from watching TV. In your experience that's when it happened. You are in error as to the actual cause and effect. Substitute here distortion when you play. Many many times knowledgeable bassists say check your battery when you thought you speakers were blown. No one says it's in your head.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Yeah Bill, there's a ton o' snake oil out there, but one of the things that can definitely be heard is lousy phase response...if only because of the spectral holes left by the phase cancellations.

True, that's why real audiophiles (those that walk the walk, not those that just talk the talk) go to great lengths to be sure that their speaker systems have the best possible phase response. That means no mixing of drivers in the same bandwidth, and no drivers placed side by side.

I can't quite play a note every 100 ms, let alone every 2-5 ms. where I'd really hear the effect of the filter you describe.

You can't hear a delay of 2-5ms anyway. If you could that would make the aforementioned synching with the drummer, or everyone else for that matter, impossible.
The only situation where you can hear the effect of 2-5ms of delay is when you hear two or more identical sources delayed that much with respect to each other, ie., an echo or early reflection, or a flanger/phase shifter effect.

 

[Wes Whitmore]

It has to be EQ or harmonics...and I hear it too when I compared an SVT-3pro to a GK1001RBII a couple of years ago. Regardless of what causes it, there was a difference. Same bass, same cab, same room. The GK's seems to almost click/snap at the start of a note. It doesn't make it better, but I have heard it.
Wes

 

[nysbob]

Thanks BFM! You're like Galileo addressing the college of cardinals.

I personally find the misnomer of a "fast" amp one of the most amusing misconceptions out there.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I personally find the misnomer of a "fast" amp one of the most amusing misconceptions out there.

Not half as amusing as 'fast bass'. But that's to be expected, as the layperson tends to think of speed relative to the mechanical realm rather than electrical, and no one has ever intuitively understood the action of sound waves.

 

[KJung]

I personally find the misnomer of a "fast" amp one of the most amusing misconceptions out there.

If you take the term literally, I would agree. However, it makes much sense to me if you take the OP's post in the spirit of using 'fast' to describe what he hears.

Similar to playing a bass toward the bridge versus toward the neck, whenever (IMO and IME), there is an increase in the ratio of mid mids and upper mids to deep bass, which occurs in some amp voicings, that results in an experience that feels and sounds like more immediacy to the attack (the front end of the note). Of course, it isn't 'faster' in any sort of 'time' sense, but the more bappy attack is, again, IMO and IME, nicely described as a sort of feeling of quicker response, hence 'fast'.

 

[agedhorse]

I would like to add that "fast" might also refer to the feeling of the ratio of harmonics to fundamental, and this proportion can give the impression that something feels "faster".

Of course, sound travels at the speed of sound, no faster nor slower (for a fixed set of environmental conditions).

 

[GrowlerBox]

You only quoted part of my tome.
Yes, folks are saying there us no such thing as quick. Our adjective may not be accurate but our experience of feel is not our imagination.

Science can explain our experience.
Of course you don't validate misinformation. You do however respect the holder of such info. You are 5 years old. Your parents take you to the doctor with a stomach ache. He doesnt tell you that your stomach doesn't hurt. He brings out what your experience is. You say it's from watching TV. In your experience that's when it happened. You are in error as to the actual cause and effect. Substitute here distortion when you play. Many many times knowledgeable bassists say check your battery when you thought you speakers were blown. No one says it's in your head.

I think we're saying the same thing here ...

 

[JimmyM]

If I ignored every engineer who talked to me like I'm a moron, I'd never learn anything.

 

[chadds]

Engineers fall in at least two camps. Those that embrace the status quo and those who push the envelope. Historically the status quo folks resist the new concepts and can call the avante garde, heretics. Then they adopt the new concepts and become dogmatic about those. Funny human nature.
This is one of the weaknesses of the practice of science. It's greatest strength? To keep questioning.

 

[okcrum]

True, that's why real audiophiles (those that walk the walk, not those that just talk the talk) go to great lengths to be sure that their speaker systems have the best possible phase response. That means no mixing of drivers in the same bandwidth, and no drivers placed side by side.

Same goes for real audio electronic designers, some of whom hang out here. You can make mush easily if you're not aware of proper phase response inside the amp, too.

You can't hear a delay of 2-5ms anyway. If you could that would make the aforementioned synching with the drummer, or everyone else for that matter, impossible.
The only situation where you can hear the effect of 2-5ms of delay is when you hear two or more identical sources delayed that much with respect to each other, ie., an echo or early reflection, or a flanger/phase shifter effect.

Agreed. Hence my example of locking in with a drummer 2 feet away. But you'd sure hear (and be able to measure) filter artifacts if you drove a 40 Hz filter with impulses of a 2-5 ms period. It'd be ugly.

EDIT: Dang, meant to say 20-50 ms instead of 2-5 ms right above, there.