A flatwound problem

[Klonk]

I've tested around 30 sets of flatwound strings during the last six-seven years. I've broken one string, and that was a G string on a LaBella DTB 760-FS set, and that might have been at least partly my fault.

 

[amper]

So recently I discovered the joy of flatwounds, and decided to stick to them. I got a pack of GHS Precision Flatwounds and immediately loved the sound and the feel. I thought about not changing them for a very long time. But suddenly yesterday during rehearsal, after only 7 months of use, the A string broke while playing with the thumb.

I now must replace the strings and have some questions. I actually felt that the strings were a bit fragile for some time, as if their surface was slightly "peeling". I'm inclined to think that they were not as solid as I thought. I'd like your opinion on which flatwounds you prefer in terms of durability. I usually prefer medium to heavy gauge, and the sound I play with my jazzbass style instrument is with both pickups on maximum and tone knob on zero. I can try pressure wounds instead of flats if someone gives me a very good reason.

Long question short: I want to buy a flatwound that will last for a very long time, since GHS lasted less than I expected. Which one should it be?

Rotosound Jazz Bass 77 Monel flatwound
D’Addario Chromes stainless steel flatwound

 

[tallboybass]

It's the bridge.

 

[Wiremessiah]

I've tested around 30 sets of flatwound strings during the last six-seven years. I've broken one string, and that was a G string on a LaBella DTB 760-FS set, and that might have been at least partly my fault.

Damn, you could have just gone with TI jazz flats and saved a lot of time. Anyway, there is much more variation in technique than between any two string sets, not to mention everything else in the chain (e.g. small changes in EQ), so strings are not worth obsessing about. Just pick something that feels good (like the TI's IMO) and go with it. If you constantly change strings, your feel and thus technique will never stabilize.

 

[Root 5]

Thomastik-Infield makes great flat wounds. A professional bass player I know told me they could literally be the last strings you put on your bass. Sound great and last forever.

That's because no one can afford to buy another set after buying the TIs

 

[Jeff Scott]

That's because no one can afford to buy another set after buying the TIs

You won't need to.

 

[Klonk]

Damn, you could have just gone with TI jazz flats and saved a lot of time. Anyway, there is much more variation in technique than between any two string sets, not to mention everything else in the chain (e.g. small changes in EQ), so strings are not worth obsessing about. Just pick something that feels good (like the TI's IMO) and go with it. If you constantly change strings, your feel and thus technique will never stabilize.

Yeah, I could have just gone with TI flats, if it hadn't been for the fact that they are, arguebly, one of the most unique feeling flat out there. I wanted to check out the more middle-of-the-field flats too before I made a decision. I also don't have alot of stuff happening in my sound chain, so in my book, my strings matter a lot. I use a passive P bass into a Ampeg tube amp with maybe some compression.

When it comes to technique, I think it's good to be able to play on different kinds of basses, and with different feeling setups and strings. Maybe that's just me. It's like switching between double bass and electric I think some basses (and strings) fit certain genres or bands I'm in better than others. Like Pino using TIs with his "signature" bass, and downtuned LaBellas with his sunburst P.

 

[Jon Moody]

If you constantly change strings, your feel and thus technique will never stabilize.

I don't agree with this at all. I've found this to be quite the opposite; playing on different strings has allowed me to expand my technique and feel further than it would normally. Same with playing different basses.

I also don't have alot of stuff happening in my sound chain, so in my book, my strings matter a lot.

I use the analogy that strings on a bass is like paint on the walls in a room. You can have that room sparsely or heavily furnished, but the paint on the wall is still going to effect the entire look and feel, even if it's subtle.

 

[Wiremessiah]

I don't agree with this at all. I've found this to be quite the opposite; playing on different strings has allowed me to expand my technique and feel further than it would normally. Same with playing different basses.

I am talking about pure physical technique. If you stick to one bass with one set of strings, you get much deeper into physical chops on that bass. If you are constantly changing strings and basses, you have to keep adjusting. Same with driving a car. You are able to drive your own car and know how everything works and the idiosyncrasies of it the more time you spend driving it, as opposed to driving different cars with changing steering wheels and pedals.

 

[Jon Moody]

I am talking about pure physical technique. If you stick to one bass with one set of strings, you get much deeper into physical chops on that bass. If you are constantly changing strings and basses, you have to keep adjusting. Same with driving a car. You are able to drive your own car and know how everything works and the idiosyncrasies of it the more time you spend driving it, as opposed to driving different cars with changing steering wheels and pedals.

Again, I respectfully disagree. You're using the concept of regularly adjusting to changes in strings, etc.. as a bad thing that limits your technique.

Using your car analogy, when I learned to drive I learned on four cars (the official drivers ed car, mom's car, dad's car, stepdad's car). While they were all vastly different cars that required that I approach them differently, the basic concept of how to drive was the same across the board. Because of that, I will argue that my driving skills progressed FASTER because I was able to adapt to changes more quickly.

Using one bass to dive deeper into all the idiosyncrasies is great, and I do that as well. But that doesn't change the pure physical technique of how to play the bass.

 

[Wiremessiah]

Again, I respectfully disagree. You're using the concept of regularly adjusting to changes in strings, etc.. as a bad thing that limits your technique.

Using your car analogy, when I learned to drive I learned on four cars (the official drivers ed car, mom's car, dad's car, stepdad's car). While they were all vastly different cars that required that I approach them differently, the basic concept of how to drive was the same across the board. Because of that, I will argue that my driving skills progressed FASTER because I was able to adapt to changes more quickly.

Using one bass to dive deeper into all the idiosyncrasies is great, and I do that as well. But that doesn't change the pure physical technique of how to play the bass.

Perhaps, but the bass you spend the most time with will be the one you are most advanced on. I thinks thats why jaco stuck with mostly one bass and the same type of strings.

 

[Jon Moody]

Perhaps, but the bass you spend the most time with will be the one you are most advanced on.

It will be the one you are most familiar with (as in, know the idiosyncrasies of), but not the most advanced.

If that was the case, you would sound awful on a bass that you pulled off the rack at a store for the first time.

I thinks thats why jaco stuck with mostly one bass and the same type of strings.

I'm guessing that had more to do with what was available to him at the time over anything else. Or the fact that he really didn't care. But he's dead, so using him as an example is speculation at best.

 

[Wiremessiah]

It will be the one you are most familiar with (as in, know the idiosyncrasies of), but not the most advanced.

If that was the case, you would sound awful on a bass that you pulled off the rack at a store for the first time.




I'm guessing that had more to do with what was available to him at the time over anything else. Or the fact that he really didn't care. But he's dead, so using him as an example is speculation at best.

Of course you will be most advanced on the instrument you have the best feel for, how can that not be true? Are you saying a seasoned F1 driver who dabbles in Nascar has just as good technique in a stock car? Not that he's awful at nascar, but experience and feel matter.


Also different strings have different grips and harmonic profiles (not to mention the variance in both electronics and settings of different basses), and that doesn't translate universally. Even switching to different flatwounds or tapes, it takes a lot of time to adjust.

And what does Jaco being dead have to do with it? I am sure he could have had any company make him basses for free and probably had string companies give him a bunch of different strings, being who he was, but he went for simplicity and it worked well for him.

 

[Jon Moody]

Of course you will be most advanced on the instrument you have the best feel for, how can that not be true? Are you saying a seasoned F1 driver who dabbles in Nascar has just as good technique in a stock car? Not that he's awful at nascar, but experience and feel matter.

Experience and feel matter, this is true. But, they serve to EXPAND the overall technique (that being, knowing how to drive a car) rather than hinder it.

An experienced F1 driver who dabbles in Nascar is going to have the same technique, since driving each car is the same (push on the gas to go, steer the wheel, push on the brake to stop). How each individual car reacts is what gives that driver the experience and feel to react better in both circumstances, because that "experience and feel" from the individual cars has expanded his technique of "driving a car."

It would be like giving Victor Wooten - a man that has changed string brands from Fodera to D'Addario to DR - a Squier and asking him to play "Amazing Grace," instead of one of his Foderas. The technique behind playing the song is the same, no matter the bass that is used. And, being a "seasoned F1 driver" like Vic is, he'd play it note for note on whatever bass he had.

Also different strings have different grips and harmonic profiles (not to mention the variance in both electronics and settings of different basses), and that doesn't translate universally. Even switching to different flatwounds or tapes, it takes a lot of time to adjust.

It does not take a lot of time to adjust to different strings. There are considerations (grips, harmonic profiles, variance in electronics and settings as mentioned) that do not translate universally. I agree to that statement.

But taking a lot of time to adjust to different strings? No. It simply does not.

And what does Jaco being dead have to do with it? I am sure he could have had any company make him basses for free and probably had string companies give him a bunch of different strings, being who he was, but he went for simplicity and it worked well for him.

We need to put Jaco in context. His "time" was the late 70s and early/mid 80s, so to say that he "could have had any company make him basses..." doesn't hold weight because the instrument market - especially in terms of boutique builders - was NOTHING like what we have today.

I mentioned that because Jaco is dead, anything you mention about him - especially choosing what he used - is speculation. Meaning, we can't ask him. So to say ANYTHING about Jaco, unless we can cite a specific source, is speculation.

You would've had a better argument using Marcus Miller, someone that has said how much his loves his (now iconic) Fender Jazz Bass. Even with his Sire basses, M2 is still seen using that same Fender Jazz. However, it's worth noting that he's gone through (that I know of) three amp companies and two string companies, and hasn't skipped a beat in terms of his skill or technique.

 

[Wiremessiah]

Experience and feel matter, this is true. But, they serve to EXPAND the overall technique (that being, knowing how to drive a car) rather than hinder it.

An experienced F1 driver who dabbles in Nascar is going to have the same technique, since driving each car is the same (push on the gas to go, steer the wheel, push on the brake to stop). How each individual car reacts is what gives that driver the experience and feel to react better in both circumstances, because that "experience and feel" from the individual cars has expanded his technique of "driving a car."

It would be like giving Victor Wooten - a man that has changed string brands from Fodera to D'Addario to DR - a Squier and asking him to play "Amazing Grace," instead of one of his Foderas. The technique behind playing the song is the same, no matter the bass that is used. And, being a "seasoned F1 driver" like Vic is, he'd play it note for note on whatever bass he had.




It does not take a lot of time to adjust to different strings. There are considerations (grips, harmonic profiles, variance in electronics and settings as mentioned) that do not translate universally. I agree to that statement.

But taking a lot of time to adjust to different strings? No. It simply does not.




We need to put Jaco in context. His "time" was the late 70s and early/mid 80s, so to say that he "could have had any company make him basses..." doesn't hold weight because the instrument market - especially in terms of boutique builders - was NOTHING like what we have today.

I mentioned that because Jaco is dead, anything you mention about him - especially choosing what he used - is speculation. Meaning, we can't ask him. So to say ANYTHING about Jaco, unless we can cite a specific source, is speculation.

You would've had a better argument using Marcus Miller, someone that has said how much his loves his (now iconic) Fender Jazz Bass. Even with his Sire basses, M2 is still seen using that same Fender Jazz. However, it's worth noting that he's gone through (that I know of) three amp companies and two string companies, and hasn't skipped a beat in terms of his skill or technique.

No, driving an F1 and nascar are very different beasts. You are talking about basic technique, meaning you turn the wheel and press gas/brake (or pluck and fret the strings), which are of course the same, but you learn this basic technique in your first lesson. How you use it develop over a long time. You can't just drive F1 your whole life and expect to be an ace at Nascar. Perhaps driving nascar expands your overall technique, but as far as physical technique, you won't be as good at nascar as you are at F1 until you put in the same amount time.

It is difficult to change strings and get the same response, at least with advanced technique. I switched to tapes and different flats for a short time, and it's just not the same feel, tension or harmonic profile. In order to get the same harmonic balance that I have worked at on TI flats, it takes a long time, and I had to do eq changes in addition to adjusting fingering. Not to mention the ability to grip the strings and play the same subdivisions at the same speed. And I have been playing over 25 years.

I would love to see Wooten try his slap technique with dark flats for the first time, and see how well it translates, and how long it takes to adjust, if it even works.

And unless you know Wooten or Miller personally, not sure if you can ask them either, so Jaco's deceased status is not exactly relevant, you should give up on that argument. Jaco was hailed even in his time as the greatest bassist ever, and in the time period Stanley Clarke was getting boutique makers to make him basses, so it's pretty easy to assume Jaco could do the same, and he at the very least had his choice of strings, free or paid.

 

[Jon Moody]

No, driving an F1 and nascar are very different beasts. You are talking about basic technique, meaning you turn the wheel and press gas/brake (or pluck and fret the strings), which are of course the same, but you learn this basic technique in your first lesson. How you use it develop over a long time. You can't just drive F1 your whole life and expect to be an ace at Nascar. Perhaps driving nascar expands your overall technique, but as far as physical technique, you won't be as good at nascar as you are at F1 until you put in the same amount time.

Again, I'm going to disagree. The F1 driver that's done that his entire life isn't going to sit in a stock car and immediately win a race; that's true. However, if that F1 driver has built his overall technique where it's not limited by the physical aspects of the car he's driving, he'll sit in that stock car and be light years ahead of anyone else. And he'll be able to figure out the physical aspects of the different car nearly immediately, just because his overall technique is solid.

It is difficult to change strings and get the same response, at least with advanced technique. I switched to tapes and different flats for a short time, and it's just not the same feel, tension or harmonic profile. In order to get the same harmonic balance that I have worked at on TI flats, it takes a long time, and I had to do eq changes in addition to adjusting fingering. Not to mention the ability to grip the strings and play the same subdivisions at the same speed. And I have been playing over 25 years.

I take gigs where I'm doubling on electric bass and upright bass (which is a completely different discussion), or two basses with flats and rounds, or fretted/fretless basses. Different responses from each instrument, but my technique is not hindered by any of this instrument switching (all of which have different strings/gauges), which happens within seconds.

I'm glad you've been playing over 25 years; so have I. I'm not quite sure where that fits into our discussion.

I would love to see Wooten try his slap technique with dark flats for the first time, and see how well it translates, and how long it takes to adjust, if it even works.

Do you go to NAMM? This kind of thing happens on a regular basis.

And unless you know Wooten or Miller personally, not sure if you can ask them either, so Jaco's deceased status is not exactly relevant, you should give up on that argument.

Based on this logic, because we do not know each other personally we shouldn't be able to have this conversation.

Wooten and Miller can easily be contacted via email, social media or at a show. Personally, I have talked with Wooten on a number of occasions and while his time is VERY limited, he was gracious to answer anything I had. They're also still producing music, and being interviewed for online blogs and magazines.

So yes, you can ask them, whether you know them personally or not. Jaco had a very short span, so anything that isn't written down at this point is purely speculation and doesn't hold weight.

Jaco was hailed even in his time as the greatest bassist ever, and in the time period Stanley Clarke was getting boutique makers to make him basses, so it's pretty easy to assume Jaco could do the same, and he at the very least had his choice of strings, free or paid.

It is pretty easy to assume, yes. However, that's all it is, an assumption that holds no weight because it can't be confirmed.

It's like trying to use the "Jaco only needed 4 strings" argument, when the reality is that 5 and 6 string basses were just being developed when he was around. Unless you've got a direct quote from him that says "I only need four strings," it's a non-argument based on assumption.

 

[Wiremessiah]

However, if that F1 driver has built his overall technique where it's not limited by the physical aspects of the car he's driving, .

That's impossible. We are all human and we all have physical limitations, and every car and instrument has it's limitations. Again, I don't think you are focusing on pure physical technique, which is what I am talking about.

I take gigs where I'm doubling on electric bass and upright bass (which is a completely different discussion), or two basses with flats and rounds, or fretted/fretless basses. Different responses from each instrument, but my technique is not hindered by any of this instrument switching (all of which have different strings/gauges), which happens within seconds.

No one is saying it will be hindered, but one won't have the same ability on upright as they do on electric, and there is no way someone like Wooten can do on an upright what he can do on electric.

Do you go to NAMM? This kind of thing happens on a regular basis.

Is there video of him playing his double thump technique with flats?

So yes, you can ask them, whether you know them personally or not. Jaco had a very short span, so anything that isn't written down at this point is purely speculation and doesn't hold weight.

Again, that's a very weak argument. The other stuff is debatable, but are you really going to say that Jaco didn't have his choice of basses and strings? Come on. That's like saying it's pure speculation that Abraham Lincoln wore underwear, because he's dead and we can never ask him.

 

[Jon Moody]

That's impossible. We are all human and we all have physical limitations, and every car and instrument has it's limitations. Again, I don't think you are focusing on pure physical technique, which is what I am talking about.

Your comments on limitations (personal and car/instrument) are true. But to state that a set of strings is going to limit YOUR personal skill is still incorrect. It won't, only if you let it.

No one is saying it will be hindered, but one won't have the same ability on upright as they do on electric, and there is no way someone like Wooten can do on an upright what he can do on electric.

Is there video of him playing his double thump technique with flats?

Good question; I'll look. In the meantime, here's Alex Lofoco doing some double-thumping on flats.

Again, that's a very weak argument. The other stuff is debatable, but are you really going to say that Jaco didn't have his choice of basses and strings? Come on. That's like saying it's pure speculation that Abraham Lincoln wore underwear, because he's dead and we can never ask him.

As someone that works in the music industry and has had many fascinating talks with the people that have worked in my company for over 40 years (including the son of the founder, who tells a story of when an aforementioned artist called, demanded an endorsement, and was laughed at), I am stating that.

Just because you're touted as the "World's Greatest Bassist" doesn't guarantee you endorsements. So no, Jaco did not have his choice of basses and strings.

As for Abe, he wouldn't have worn underwear as we know it since briefs were introduced in 1935. If he wore anything, it would've probably been a union suit as that was the style at the time.

 

[Wiremessiah]

Your comments on limitations (personal and car/instrument) are true. But to state that a set of strings is going to limit YOUR personal skill is still incorrect. It won't, only if you let it.








Good question; I'll look. In the meantime, here's Alex Lofoco doing some double-thumping on flats.






As someone that works in the music industry and has had many fascinating talks with the people that have worked in my company for over 40 years (including the son of the founder, who tells a story of when an aforementioned artist called, demanded an endorsement, and was laughed at), I am stating that.

Just because you're touted as the "World's Greatest Bassist" doesn't guarantee you endorsements. So no, Jaco did not have his choice of basses and strings.

As for Abe, he wouldn't have worn underwear as we know it since briefs were introduced in 1935. If he wore anything, it would've probably been a union suit as that was the style at the time.

Your comments on limitations (personal and car/instrument) are true. But to state that a set of strings is going to limit YOUR personal skill is still incorrect. It won't, only if you let it.








Good question; I'll look. In the meantime, here's Alex Lofoco doing some double-thumping on flats.






As someone that works in the music industry and has had many fascinating talks with the people that have worked in my company for over 40 years (including the son of the founder, who tells a story of when an aforementioned artist called, demanded an endorsement, and was laughed at), I am stating that.

Just because you're touted as the "World's Greatest Bassist" doesn't guarantee you endorsements. So no, Jaco did not have his choice of basses and strings.

As for Abe, he wouldn't have worn underwear as we know it since briefs were introduced in 1935. If he wore anything, it would've probably been a union suit as that was the style at the time.

Not saying victor isnt good at upright, just nowhere near as good as far as physical technique on electric. Partly because upright is harder but mostly because he doesnt play it as much. I am pretty sure a union suit is underwear, but lets just say socks. And jaco didnt have to have an endorsement deal to have his pick of basses and strings. Sorry but that is a super weak sauce argument and you know it, but you wont give it up. Its safe to assume lincoln wore socks and jaco chose to play one bass with the same strings. And its safe to assume you lost that part of the argument if you have to nitpick an analogy.