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A glimpse into how much semi-big full time bands make?

I don't understand how a touring band on a label could make THAT little. Granted, I realize they're not going to be raking in millions, but $17K a year? You have to figure they would get at least $800-$1000 per show. If you're touring that's gotta be at least 100 shows per year. That's just sounds like horrendous management to me. Am I wrong to think this?

$1000 per show
Manager gets 15%, agent gets 15%

$700
now pay for motel rooms, gas, van rental, meals, etc.

$300
now pay your 2 roadies

$100 left, now split that amongst the band members

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

OK, after 100 shows, the total is $10,000...for a four piece band, $2500 apiece. Now pay your income taxes :confused:
 
Does this mean that Metal is dying of a slow death? Are we going to be stuck with Justin Bieber going forward?

Not necessarily. I think to a large extent market saturation means more mediocre art, versus less exceptional. It takes work to sift through the noise to find the good stuff, which in turn gets trivialized by everything else trying to emulate it. That's the way of popular art. There's no getting around that reality.

As far as this particular band goes, I'm already pretty sure I wouldn't like it, so I haven't listened to it. Thus, I really have nothing to add. But before anyone gets their panties in a wad that perhaps I'm not "open" to new experience, or whatever, consider the fact that aside from being a musician, I'm also a music listener and consumer. It just so happens that I am not a death/core/black/insert-dark-imagery here metal fan. It's not that I don't want these bands to be successful. It's that I would prefer my support go to music I care about. As a few have said, death metal is a niche genre. Apart from being highly distinctive and easily recognizable by most as to what it is (death metal), only a small percentage of the masses are dedicated fans. That's the reality. Absolutely no offense meant to death metal musicians and fans. But that's how it is.

If you have a small niche of consumers, you either need to find ways to increase your market share, or squeeze more support out of the base you have. Popular music, as much as we don't want to admit it, is disposable and replaceable, just like every other commodity. And with ease of reproduction and distribution, it's becoming increasingly so. Kudos to the bands who put all of their passion and investment into trying to make a living off of their craft. But the odds are simply not in their favor. Not even close. Nowhere outside of entertainment do people even think of going against such odds. Yet people continue to try.

Artists among the rich has been a blip occurring over the last 50-60 years. For most of history, artists have been below the working class, earning almost nothing.

This. This right here is the gospel truth. The historical reality is that musicians as rich and famous god heroes of excess is a very recent phenomenon. That anyone could make a living at art on their own creative terms, at or above working class wages, is an anomaly of the industrial age.

Metal is not cheap to play. Not by a long shot. I can take my acoustic, practice with it almost anywhere, play a gig with minimal sound reinforcement, and perhaps entertain enough coffee drinkers with expendable income to give me some tips. I can play my songs at an open mic for free. I can't do any of that with a drum kit, full guitar and bass stacks, and screaming, without paying A LOT of money to do it, and only in specific places that can handle the sound demands. Where anyone got the idea that having so much expensive loud gear would increase their chance of being paid as a musician is beyond me. But it is what it is.

The artists that have operated on their own level are usually very canny businesspeople who identify and fill a need, only their art happens to be their product. Hate on Taylor Swift all day long, but she is a businessperson first and an artist second and that is why she rules the world.

Identify and fill a need. Taylor Swift uses all of her gawd-given gifts to the umpteenth degree - looks, talent, sound, smarts/savvy. Like Dolly Parton, she appeals to just about every demographic, works every angle possible, and gets paid accordingly. She is no hack. She's the real deal, whether we want to admit it or not.
 
Not necessarily. The music industry has changed radically over the last few decades. Availability of genres and distribution channels aren't what they were in the Black Sabbath era. The public wants what the public wants.

I do think it's amusing that the metal paradox exists. Metal is a rejection of the popular, yet bands want to make money at it, which can only happen if they become popular.

+1. People complain about labels not supporting, but I think the bottom line is that industry execs know how to make money. If they could sell something and make money at it, they would. It's rather like self-publishing a book. A lot of people decide they'll publish their novel themselves after it gets rejected by publishers. But the fact is that if professional booksellers don't think they can make money off your book, odds are not good that you will.

And on the second line in that post, I just gotta say that I get no end of amusement out of metal fans kvetching about this or that metal band being too "mainstream" in exactly the same way that a hipster would use the term. You're totally right; you can't look down your nose at the mainstream and then act shocked when you're not making any money.

Alright! I have about $0.10 to drop on this thread instead of the regular 0.02.

"That's not music" @$&* you! That's what they said about Swing in the 20s, Elvis in the 50s and the Beatles in the 60s. When every generation gets older they complain like a bunch of old cranks about how what is being played now isn't music.
"Is that singing?" See the '@$&% you' comment above. I seem to remember old people complaining about the caterwauling of bands like the Beatles, Stones, and Led Zep. Things change, get over it. What kind of vocals do you think would work over blast beats, A-tuned guitars, and lyrics about murdering people. Bing Crosby ain't gonna work for that.
"Its a niche market" so is Rush, jazz, prog, and 80% of the things people talk about on TB. Then when someone brings up Bruno Mars on the Super Bowl they say "whose that?" The biggest acts pulling down money right now get slammed on TB all the time, so I don't think anyone here has a lot to say about that is niche and what isn't.

We may or may not like the genre. But I think it's fair to say that the nature of the genre is such that it IS going to be a niche style and not appeal to mass audiences. Sure, the 50s parents may have said the same thing about Elvis that @mellowinman said about this band, but Elvis had masses of girls swooning and these guys don't. His reaction may be subjective, but among the record/ticket-buying public, he's hardly alone.

I agree with you that prog is generally as much of a niche market as metal. That doesn't make metal NOT a niche, just means it isn't the only one. Rush, on the other hand, can sell out a 20,000 seat arena at $80+ a ticket. That's a whole other weight class than Queens of the Stone Age selling 4,000 seats at $30 a ticket, let alone these other acts who have to triple up to attract half that. Jazz (and classical), meanwhile, are a whole other market. They're not about radio play and record sales, not even concert ticket sales. They're about concerts at the White House and grants from the NEA and institutions that are charitable nonprofits funded by wealthy philanthropists and colleges. It's an economy of prestige and patronage rather than popular appeal.

The rest of your post was valid enough, but it's what we all already know about the music industry overall; money is tighter and less is being made. Even the big pop acts today are fewer in number and splitting a smaller pie than thirty or forty years ago.
 
I have never heard of the band so 400K FB fans does not make a band big. Look if Dave Lombardo, who is by all accounts an excellent metal drummer, can only make $67k a year in Slayer, I would have to say Heavy Metal is not a genre to go into to meet attractive women or make money.
 
Back in the early 70's I played with a group called The Young Century's. We primarily did covers but would mix in a few originals usually in the third set. We weren't famous and didn't have a record deal but we were full time touring nightclub group. We played 5-nights a week for 50-weeks a year. My cut back in '72 was typically between $500 and $600 for the week. To put that in perspective that would be a little over $2,800 to over $3,400 a week in today's $$.

We traveled all the time and would typically spend 2 weeks at one locale, rarely only one-week. It was not unusual to travel 300 to 600 miles to the next gig. We lived in motels and usually got a good rate because we were staying over a week. Ate in restaurants all the time too, so expenses were not real low, but made enough money that I paid for our daughter's birth well before she was born. Also played some military clubs and got the NCO club or one base in a competition with the O-Club over who could provide us the best meal. Both had top-quality chefs who were very proud of their culinary skills and we took full advantage of that pride. You need to take full advantage of such opportunities and our BL was very good at that. We were at the point where we were playing nice clubs and not dives, so they had the bucks to pay, especially since we would bring in standing room crowds for them. We would often play the same club twice a year and each time charge a little bit more.

So there's money to be made if you are willing to travel and you get a decent agent to string them together for you. We were typically booked up 3 to 4 months ahead of time. Worst place to "try" to play was LA because there are so many good musicians and bands down there playing for nothing. So we didn't. We typically traveled to mid-size cities and made a good living doing so. Disco took a huge bite out of live-music opportunities, but thank God that has passed and there are a lot of live-music clubs around again. The trick was, you needed to be good and you needed to be a road-warrior. If you couldn't do that, you didn't have much chance.
 
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People oversimplify the fame = money thing. There are a relatively small number of musicians who are popular and rich, when you look at the entire pro musician population. The failure in the thought chain is this:

1 - I know of famous musician 1 and he/she is rich.
2 - I assume famous musicians must be rich.
3 - I am aware of musician 2 doing things that look similar to musician 1, so musician 2 must be similarly rich.
4 - I'm aware musician 2 is probably 50% as popular as musician 1, so musician 2 must make about 50% as much as musician 1.

Point 3 is where it falls apart. People make bad assumptions. To paraphrase Tyler Durden, sticking feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken... However, the casual observer might still consider you close enough that they assume you a chicken and categorize you as such in their mind.

Point 4 is also a failure in the human brain's ability to scale things. Earnings grows exponentially. The closer you get to the top 1%, the bigger the leaps in earnings. The difference between being in the lowest 5% vs the lowest 15% is smaller than the difference between the top 5% and top 15%. Humans want to think in linear terms; for every unit of effort I put in, there is a corresponding unit of reward, and the ratio between effort and reward is always fixed.
 
$1000 per show
Manager gets 15%, agent gets 15%

$700
now pay for motel rooms, gas, van rental, meals, etc.

$300
now pay your 2 roadies

$100 left, now split that amongst the band members

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

OK, after 100 shows, the total is $10,000...for a four piece band, $2500 apiece. Now pay your income taxes :confused:

Even worse.....play all around the country and welcome to tax nightmare. You need to pay 31 different state taxes. Some states nothing....others not so much. Of course all expenses deductable you end up paying and making very little!
 
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Point 4 is also a failure in the human brain's ability to scale things. Earnings grows exponentially. The closer you get to the top 1%, the bigger the leaps in earnings. The difference between being in the lowest 5% vs the lowest 15% is smaller than the difference between the top 5% and top 15%. Humans want to think in linear terms; for every unit of effort I put in, there is a corresponding unit of reward, and the ratio between effort and reward is always fixed.

Yup. This is an economic problem that extends beyond the music scene. However, nowhere is it more pronounced than in the music scene.

It's hard to not look at that picture of Zeppelin outside their jet, and think, "man, what would it be like to not only play amazing music, but live the high life doing it, too! Well, no one wins the lottery who doesn't play, amirite?"

I think in very simplistic terms, we can say that there are a tiny, tiny percentage of folks making the bulk of earnings in the music industry. But because they become household names, anyone else making anything more than a living wage do so by "supporting" the creators at best, and outright exploiting at worst - because there will always be people who want to believe in the dream.
 
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My band has been opening for some fairly well-known yet older acts. I saw a band get $1200 for the show and I was kind of surprised. The manager was talking to the club manager and saying how last year they got $2000. This is a punk band that I listened to as a kid. So yeah, if you play punk or metal, think of it as a kind of expensive hobby. You aint makin money.
 
My band has been opening for some fairly well-known yet older acts. I saw a band get $1200 for the show and I was kind of surprised. The manager was talking to the club manager and saying how last year they got $2000. This is a punk band that I listened to as a kid. So yeah, if you play punk or metal, think of it as a kind of expensive hobby. You aint makin money.


You can if you monetize branding and syndication in a meaningful way. Kiss is the model of this. Somebody is making tons of cash selling iconic Ramones and Motörhead logo shirts, but it ain't the bands.
 
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Back in the early 70's I played with a group called The Young Century's. We primarily did covers but would mix in a few originals usually in the third set. We weren't famous and didn't have a record deal but we were full time touring nightclub group. We played 5-nights a week for 50-weeks a year. My cut back in '72 was typically between $500 and $600 for the week. To put that in perspective that would be a little over $2,800 to over $3,400 a week in today's $$.

We traveled all the time and would typically spend 2 weeks at one locale, rarely only one-week. It was not unusual to travel 300 to 600 miles to the next gig. We lived in motels and usually got a good rate because we were staying over a week. Ate in restaurants all the time too, so expenses were not real low, but made enough money that I paid for our daughter's birth well before she was born. Also played some military clubs and got the NCO club or one base in a competition with the O-Club over who could provide us the best meal. Both had top-quality chefs who were very proud of their culinary skills and we took full advantage of that pride. You need to take full advantage of such opportunities and our BL was very good at that. We were at the point where we were playing nice clubs and not dives, so they had the bucks to pay, especially since we would bring in standing room crowds for them. We would often play the same club twice a year and each time charge a little bit more.

So there's money to be made if you are willing to travel and you get a decent agent to string them together for you. We were typically booked up 3 to 4 months ahead of time. Worst place to "try" to play was LA because there are so many good musicians and bands down there playing for nothing. So we didn't. We typically traveled to mid-size cities and made a good living doing so. Disco took a huge bite out of live-music opportunities, but thank God that has passed and there are a lot of live-music clubs around again. The trick was, you needed to be good and you needed to be a road-warrior. If you couldn't do that, you didn't have much chance.

No offense, but I don't think the music economy today bears any resemblance to what you experienced in the 70s.
 
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Red Sun Rising is a good example of a band that I think is becoming successful. #1 single on the charts, touring all over the place. I attribute it to being original, making a connection to fans, and keeping touring costs down. Of course, that's all speculation. But I have messaged them on FB and gotten responses, I got to chat with them after the local show, etc. They seem to be doing pretty well and they had a chance to go back home for a break after their last tour!

It is difficult to make something that is not only authentic/original but also something that can be appreciated by a wider audience. When you don't have both, guess which one takes precedence?

And there you have your fancy equation that explains why pop is at da top!
 
A few years ago, I saw RSR twice at a club in a tiny village two miles up the road from my house; I assume they stopped on their way between Buffalo and Pittsburgh (the club is right on US 219 and closed earlier this year when the owner died). I thought they were well worth the $5 cover charge and bought a CD at one show, but I never expected them to have a number 1 single. A guy from my town is now playing guitar and touring with them. I'm glad they succeeded, but I have no idea how they did it. To me they were a band that wrote good songs and had stage presence, but I've seen those things in several bands that went nowhere. njones89, your insights are interesting, but there had to be something else that put them over the top. I'd love to know what it was.

Red Sun Rising is a good example of a band that I think is becoming successful. #1 single on the charts, touring all over the place. I attribute it to being original, making a connection to fans, and keeping touring costs down. Of course, that's all speculation. But I have messaged them on FB and gotten responses, I got to chat with them after the local show, etc. They seem to be doing pretty well and they had a chance to go back home for a break after their last tour!

It is difficult to make something that is not only authentic/original but also something that can be appreciated by a wider audience. When you don't have both, guess which one takes precedence?

And there you have your fancy equation that explains why pop is at da top!
 
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Exactly- the venues for "traveling" cover bands are all but dead. The venues for local cover bands are not great in many areas either.
If you want to play country and spend most of your time in the Dakotas and Wyoming there's still some half decent places to play. I did it for a while and to be honest it's a miserable circuit.
 
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No offense, but I don't think the music economy today bears any resemblance to what you experienced in the 70s.

No offense taken at all. It's a looooonnnnnnnggggg time ago.

But the deal was back then, there were at least a couple of decent clubs in each town. And more in larger towns. I stilled played music after I left that band and settled down in the LA area, but it was just casual gigs, a couple of weekends a month. When Disco took off and everyone started putting DJ's in the clubs instead of live music, THAT was a major problem. Gigs really dried up. But that's not the same at all anymore. When I was in Roanoke, Virginia (Southwest VA) there were 8-10 decent places to play in the Roanoke area and you could get more gigs if you traveled over to Blacksburg where Virginia Tech is located. The VA Tech gigs often paid extremely well.

I'm living in the Seattle area now and you not only have clubs in every little town and suburb, you also have casinos. Playing in casinos can be a bit of a bummer sometimes but the money is good and there are at least 5 of them within an hour's drive or so. But if you want to make a living at it, you have to coordinate a few things.

When I was touring, you had to belong to the Musician's Union to get the good gigs. So we all did that. One of the most important things is to have a good agent who has the connections to dig up the gigs and string them together so you can reasonably drive to them and yet, don't end up with a bunch of unpaid down time between gigs. We usually played 5-nights a week - Tuesdays through Saturdays. Sunday and Monday were travel days. Ideally those Sun/Mon were the only days you were not performing. We played clubs in CA, NV, UT, WY, NB, and Michigan. This is real road warrior stuff and not for the casual player. Plan was to work our way across the country to New York, and then we got a 3-month contract in Hawaii, so we stopped in MI and drove back to CA. Played a couple of clubs along the way but the point was to get back west quickly.

Don't confuse an agent with a "manager". Agents have specific laws they are required to follow and maximum fees they can charge. Way back when I was doing it, California limited an agent's fee to no more than 10%. A good agent is worth every bit of that. HOWEVER, a group manager or personal manager is not an agent and not subject to those limitations. Not uncommon for a "manager" to take 20% to 40% or more. AND then, if they use an agent to book the gig (because the manager is not an agent), you still have to pay the agent's fee in addition to the manager's fees. So you need to be careful and fully specify in the contract exactly what he does (including what he pays for out of his cut) and what % he gets. Elvis Presley paid 50% to his manager and never regretted it. That's a pretty extreme case in my opinion. But a manager with good connections can make a real difference and if you are hiring trucks to move your gear from town to town, makes sense to have someone besides the BL handle all the details so you can just play music.

If these guys are losing money touring, then they aren't doing it right. Most "famous" groups don't make the bulk of their money off the recording contract but off the tours. Led Zeppelin started that trend when they no longer took a flat $300,000 or so for a concert, but instead took something like half the gate with a minimum guarantee. They had a good manager. If a manager is handling this group's tour details, they need a new manager. No way the expenses should eat up so much that they get pauper's wages. Someone needs to control their expenses and get paid according to how much they net. Sad news is that managers are notorious for not being honest. They like to take a big cut, incur lots of expenses, and then have you pay for all the expenses. So a very specific contract is important.
 
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The only full time musicians i know make a living by diversifying. Sounds like this dude was the lead singer in a single metal band. Was he also teaching? Did he have any side projects? Producing? Songwriting? Maybe he didn't have the skill set to do these things, as a metal band singer. So really, $2500 a year is all this dude probably deserved, since that was his value.