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a good pub gig tone without pa system

Mytt88

Mytt88

Jan 18, 2011
217
76
#1
Is it possible to sound good live without going through a pa system?

All local bands I've heard especially bass sounds merged as one big lump of sound unless through a pa where everything seems separated and has its own layer.

I'm currently practicing with a band and I notice I'm having the same problem. Scooped tone sounds great on its own but gets lost in the mix then any tweaking I'm either inaudible roof rattling rumble or unpleasant tinny screeching high. Anywhere middy that can cut through doesn't really sound good to me especially when the rest of the band stops and I'm still playing.

My band have some songs that are like alice in chains (would?) Black sabbath (black sabbath) and others like pearl jam (black).

And suggestions? I can list my gear if it helps
 
#2
I think you can solve this problem, but in general mids are your friends with bass tone in a band mix. Specifically the low-mids, from 150 through 600 Hz. If you're playing metal, of course your guitarists are eating all this space up, and you're in for a rough time.

My solution to that problem is to not play metal. Not sure if that will work for you though...
 
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#4
Keep your PD7 on Overdrive mode - the distortion setting is a scooped, muddy mess. Crank the low mids on your GK, it'll sound weird to you at first but you'll get used to it and the audience will be able to hear you much better. Be sure not to crank the bass on your ATK or your GK too much. Seems counter-intuitive but trust me, it will help. Also remember that your rig is going to sound much different 20+ feet away than it does when you're right next to it. See if you can get a long cable, or have someone else play your bass while you walk around the room. That will give you a better sense of what the audience hears vs what you hear when you're 6 feet away with the cab pointed at your legs.

...anyway the answer to your question is yes. You can have a good, even great bass tone without PA support.
 
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#5
The PA just makes whatever you have, louder. It's supposed to let the audience hear you properly. The snag is that the on stage volume from drums and back line is often quite capable of filling the room without the PA, so sticking the instruments through a PA when it's already loud, makes the big mess of a sound that started out quite good. Everything fights. For the smaller gigs, then using a PA just for vocals is very sensible, moving up to a full mix only when the stage sound alone isn't enough. With my band, a few times my bass is too loud out front, and they just drop it out of the mix, same as the drums and guitar. Some idiots mix for volume, others mix for quality of sound. I wish they were the same thing!
 
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#7
paulears said:
The PA just makes whatever you have, louder. It's supposed to let the audience hear you properly. The snag is that the on stage volume from drums and back line is often quite capable of filling the room without the PA, so sticking the instruments through a PA when it's already loud, makes the big mess of a sound that started out quite good. Everything fights. For the smaller gigs, then using a PA just for vocals is very sensible, moving up to a full mix only when the stage sound alone isn't enough. With my band, a few times my bass is too loud out front, and they just drop it out of the mix, same as the drums and guitar. Some idiots mix for volume, others mix for quality of sound. I wish they were the same thing!
Click to expand...

Words of wisdom!
 
#9
Wisdom? Not certain, just a painful journey. As I've got older, I'm far more laid back on what my sound on stage sounds like, trusting our sound guy (who I actually replaced on bass and vocals). He knows what we should sound like, but admits to getting to wrong sometimes because on stage, all four of us have a different opinion of a good mix! Through choice, I love my IEMs and personal mix, but apparently the others like to hear my bass cab ratting away, turned up loud.

I also run a production company offering lights and sound for other bands, and just recently had to mix a Guns 'n' Roses tribute band. They argued all night between each other over everything, and simply refused to turn down the back line. It's a big venue, 1400 seats on one level. At the mix position at the rear, it was ear shatteringly loud from the bass and guitars. So all that was in our PA was the drums and vocals. I had to match the over loud stage sound and the balance was a fight from start to finish. The 'Axel Rose' was a big headed idiot. with three songs left on the set list, the drummer yelled F... Off at him and threw the screwed up setlist at him. 'Axel' then walked off, and left them to finish without him.

No way it was going to sound good!
 
#11
Mytt88 said:
Is it possible to sound good live without going through a pa system? sure is

All local bands I've heard especially bass sounds merged as one big lump of sound unless through a pa where everything seems separated and has its own layer. yeah, even with a PA, witness Paul^

I'm currently practicing with a band and I notice I'm having the same problem. Scooped tone sounds great on its own but gets lost in the mix then any tweaking I'm either inaudible roof rattling rumble or unpleasant tinny screeching high. Anywhere middy that can cut through doesn't really sound good to me especially when the rest of the band stops and I'm still playing. getting some cooperation from your band will let you use less extreme EQ

My band have some songs that are like alice in chains (would?) Black sabbath (black sabbath) and others like pearl jam (black).

And suggestions? I can list my gear if it helps by all means
Click to expand...

The main adjustment that many bands could use is to turn the hell down. Get that sounding good, then amp it up with the PA.

The PA should be tuned to the room. It sends everyone's delicious tone all over, unlike amp rigs which focus tone only in front of them and are tuned for the player in the near field. Best of both worlds, tone and dispersion in one fell swoop, so long as the PA is doing the main work.

The enemy of this approach are many:

The "louder is better" mentality.
Bedroom tones.
Rigs that play very well to players' knees but few of the audience and not at all well to the players' ears.
Drummers that buy into the volume excesses of guitarists and bash the bejesus out of the kit.
Are we full circle yet?

Eq'ing to cut through a dog's breakfast is less than we deserve as bassists.

I compomise my uber lows to the kickdrum, gets rid of that low mud, in turn the guitars must compromise their uber lows to let the bass tone out.

I'm not playing metal but I have mixed a fair bit of it. Local bands are a bit underequipped compared to average TB band, still they manage to be a challenge. The audiences respond well to the guys that take my advice.

It is definitely possible to get past the amorphous mush with a loud style band and vocal PA, without losing energy.
 
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#12
Downunderwonder said:
The main adjustment that many bands could use is to turn the hell down. Get that sounding good, then amp it up with the PA.

The PA should be tuned to the room. It sends everyone's delicious tone all over, unlike amp rigs which focus tone only in front of them and are tuned for the player in the near field. Best of both worlds, tone and dispersion in one fell swoop, so long as the PA is doing the main work.

The enemy of this approach are many:

The "louder is better" mentality.
Bedroom tones.
Rigs that play very well to players' knees but few of the audience and not at all well to the players' ears.
Drummers that buy into the volume excesses of guitarists and bash the bejesus out of the kit.
Are we full circle yet?

Eq'ing to cut through a dog's breakfast is less than we deserve as bassists.

I compomise my uber lows to the kickdrum, gets rid of that low mud, in turn the guitars must compromise their uber lows to let the bass tone out.

I'm not playing metal but I have mixed a fair bit of it. Local bands are a bit underequipped compared to average TB band, still they manage to be a challenge. The audiences respond well to the guys that take my advice.

It is definitely possible to get past the amorphous mush with a loud style band and vocal PA, without losing energy.
Click to expand...

Thanks this is the kind of information I need but could you give an aproximation of the frequencies I should cut out? both on bass and guitar that would really help me there.
Cheers
 
#15
I use my big rig even for small venues with no PA support for anything but vocals and maybe kickdrum when i play rock.
The important thing is to listen to the bass volume in the middle of the crowded room and to set it low enough, even if the horsepower to tear down the ceiling is at hand.
IMO a big rig running at low volume sounds fuller and carries better than a small rig turned up. my default setting is a slight boost in the higher midrange and some bass boost - i check how much the room can handle.
 
#16
playing with a pick really helps get that kind of tone. Fingers only is easier for me but if the song (or the mix) demands it, I grab a pick.
1) listen to that guitar tone -- it's pretty thin and gives the bass some frequencies to live in.
2) the arrangement gives the bass some room - the guitar picks only a few notes during the verse.

one tip somebody suggested on talkbass somewhere that I like is turning on your amp with the lows all the way OFF, everything else flat. Play and get your volume where you can hear it well, then turn your lows up slowly and keep them as low as you can stand. gets more definition to the sound and hear yourself better.
maybe the reason it sounds better to you when the bass goes through the PA is that the amp is being kept quieter in those cases, and everybody's not having a volume war onstage.


love that song, but Jerry's singing was awful!
 

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