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Double Bass A hopefully worthwhile question - luthiers?

Hey TB. So, summer is coming soon. I was thinking last night - I'm in the Chicagoland area, so I'm sure there's bound to be a few somewhere, but luthiers: does anybody happen to know any somewhat nearby that would allow guests to spectate? I don't have any person connections to luthiers, so this is why I turn to you all!

Maybe it's a bit of a strange question, but I'd love to watch a seasoned veteran work. I'm sure that there'd be things I can learn, but I frankly love being around the instruments, and I think watching a luthier work in person would absolutely ignite my interest in the instrument and make it even more ravenous than it already is. I play a lot, I handmade my own technically-acoustic (meant to be an electric, but I'm uncertain about anything electronic, so I've not installed pick-ups yet - one day I promise I will!) just for the sake of learning some basic woodworking.

In short, I think that if I could contact a double bass luthier and be allowed to observe, I'd probably become undeniably interested in seeking an apprenticeship.

(also sorry if this is not in the right forum, not really sure where to post it)
 
I've looked through CSVM's site, and it seems overwhelmingly.. violin-y. Anybody happen to know places or people that specialize with upright basses? It's not that violins are terrible instruments, it's just that I have little to no interest in actually playing them. The course outline seems to suggest that a proficiency with violin is also a part of the curriculum. I play bass for a reason; it's my soulmate instrument. I can't stand tiny squeaky instruments (also, looking at a fingerboard the way required for a violin completely trips me up for some inexplicable reason). Even a place that placed more emphasis on cellos would be nice since the playing style of the two is much more relatable. Perhaps it sounds foolish, but I'm not really looking to turn into a commercial luthier. I'd just like to learn enough to make my own quality upright bass one day so I can live and die with it :D

Thanks a lot though Eric! I'll dig through the directory and see if anything more suited to my interests :)

EDIT: I've emailed CSVM inquiring if they offer any sort of non-degree specialization in uprights. I'll be sure to update, provided they respond
 
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While there definitely is a large difference in knowledge and experience between someone making their first bass and a bass maker who does it for a living, you both have to go through the same steps. If you want to learn how to make just one, you need to learn and execute the same steps that you would be using if you made one hundred. So you could become a maker with the intention of only ever making one for yourself, or you could do it with the intention of making more instruments. The only other alternative I see is "making" an instrument with an established maker who holds your hand through the process and potentially takes care of some of the tricky bits, but I doubt too many makers would want to do something like that when they could be working on their own, or teaching an apprentice/someone who wants to learn to practice the craft. There are plenty of talented repair people who don't make instruments, and plenty of them who have made one or two but are kept busy enough with other things in the shop that they don't/can't make an abundance of instruments. While there are a lot of similarities in repair/restoration work and making and a knowledge of one doesn't hurt the other, it does not sound like that is what you want to get into.

You might be able to find a luthier/maker who wouldn't mind a fly on the wall in the shop, but I'm not overly optimistic. Few people have room for an additional body in the shop when they are working, and few enjoy having someone looking over their shoulder. To give you an analogy to playing, few musicians would want to have someone sit in and watch them practicing, regardless to how much they enjoy performing. Even if that person isn't asking questions or getting in the way, you wouldn't likely feel comfortable with them intently watching you practice, and you would likely fell your work suffer as a result. The violin making schools might be your best option for something like that if they allow people to audit their classes but they might not allow it, they might only allow you to audit lectures/presentations instead of shop time, and there will likely be a fee involved.

If you are looking to become a maker, then your options are typically to apprentice, attend one of the schools, attend summer/workshop programs, or try to figure it out on your own. If you want to apprentice, you need to find someone who is willing to take you. Most makers want their apprentice to have at least a basic understanding of tool use, sharpening, and wood working, where others want someone with repair experience. Very few take "I've never held a plane before" people, unless they know them personally. Summer/workshop programs come in a lot of different flavours, but typically you are going to learn far more about tool use and the instrument if you start with repair instead of making. A violin maker gave me 350-ish hours as an estimate of how long it takes him to complete an instrument, so you can imagine how far you would get through the process as a first timer during a 40 hour course. The Chicago School of Violin Making is 3780 hours of class time, (which doesn't count the work you do on your own time) and they expect you to make 6 instruments, 3 violins, a viola, and 2 personal choice, in 3 years. North Bennet St. School is 7 instruments in 3 years, 5 of which are violins. While we live in an era when there is an overwhelming amount of information available to you online and elsewhere and there are some pretty good resources out there for instrument making, "So you want to make a Double Bass" comes to mind, there are a lot of questions along the lines of "does this feel strong/thin/flexible enough?" that are answered in person much better than by reading a book.

As far as the schools go, they focus on violins because they are smaller which requires less time and materials, because there are far more violinist out there than bassists, and because the skills/knowledge translates to the other instruments as well. Eric Rene Roy from Upton went to North Bennet St. and a few other bass makers got their start at violin making schools. If you are interested in Chicago specifically, it would be worth getting in touch with them and finding out were they stand on basses. There doesn't appear to be anything suggesting that the two "personal choice" instruments can't be basses, although they might advise against both of them being basses because of the amount of time you have at your disposal. The playing requirements vary from school to school as well where some of them say violin vs. violin family instrument, and the level at which they want you to play varies too. You might be perfectly fine going as a bassist and playing bass, or you might have to learn another instrument. Again, contacting the schools directly is your best course of action if that is a path you are considering pursuing.

There is a bass specific workshop at Oberlin affiliated with the VSA and many past participants are members of Talkbass, but I am under the impression it is geared towards people already working in the business, not beginners.

That should give you a few options to explore and a couple things to think about.
 
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I know what you mean!

I was an antique furniture restorer in a previous life, as well as a bassist, and I've done some work on my electrics and a bit on my upright, but when I see pics of luthiers at work, like the wonderful Upton Bass videos, I think how wonderful it would be to do that all day, working with fine woods, precision tools, creating something wonderful that will last for generations and wonder if I should have chosen a different career path!

In the meantime check out this luthiery and restoration work at the Contrabass Shoppe!

The "Hegner". An important Swedish Double Bass by Alfred Nilsson Brock anno 1903 - #2693 from the double bass specialists Contrabass Shoppe

They have some really lovely basses and some wonderful shots of the restoration work that they do, which is a thing of beauty to behold. I spent hours drooling over this site and the lovely instruments, the techniques of restoration, the old techniques and the new, and everything about it.

Until you get to sit in with a luthier, send some quality time over there!
 
I actually got a response from CSMV today.

"Thank you for your inquiry. The Chicago School of Violin Making offers a full-time, 3-year program in violin making and repair. The curriculum includes instruction in violin and viola making, with cello optional for more advanced students. Due to time and space constraints, bass making is not part of the curriculum, although instructors and students have constructed a bass during after-school hours on a volunteer basis. Also a badly damaged bass was repaired as part of a volunteer learning experience."

I work two jobs, attend full-time college, and still want to do this. I've asked for further details with hope that there's a sort of availability I can accept after my work hours or over the summer! :D Something like this would be most ideal for me; guidance, later during the day, no violins/cellos..

Help me TB, I'm super excited and am already padding my wallet with singles for the toll-roads! :hyper:
 
There are just not that many double bass specific luthiers in the country. From the amount of inquiries that I get on an almost daily basis, I'd conservatively estimate that there are probably 500 people who want a situation that you are describing for every one working luthier, and every one of them wants it to be free and on their terms. Good luck with that model. While I have an endless amount of people I have never met contacting me, the ones that I do allow into the shop also possess a skill set that can counterbalance mine. One of my apprentices is fantastic with electronics and helps me maintain the vintage machinery and does some CAD work for me. Another is a fantastic guitar player who sends lots of nice gigs my way on bass. Many people start out paying for the time and then once they have some skills or understandings then they get offered a chance to expand their skill set and to also get paid helping in the shop; just like a musician who starts out taking lessons and then once they have some skills, they get offered a gig. Some unknown person from Long Island who drinks seven cups of coffee before 8 am talking manic and wants to hang over my shoulder like a sex offender for free on their terms....not very likely....

Very few people are in this profession because of the opportuninty for expensive cars and fancy homes. Most are humble people who have an intense curiosity for a craft that combines some of the best traditional old world skills with very skilled mathematical challenges. I'd say that over 1/3 of the luthiers I know have at least an undergraduate degree and many graduate level degrees in engineering and the hard sciences and found those fields very frustrating, yet lutherie extremely intellectually satisfying, but not very financially rewarding. The number one secret for a successful long term career as a luthier is having a wife with a good job!

'Not trying to discourage you; every single person who works professionally has gone through a similar challenge when starting out. What it really comes down to is people skills. Laid back personalities and musical chops were always a foot in the door for me at a young age. Even after 37 years as a luthier, I still seek out many of the best people in the world for advice and knowledge. Some of them I bring $100 bottles of whiskey, others I pay upwards of $150 or more an hour for their time, others I help them out by writing a nice article or two, and almost every one I spend hours serenading them in the shop, working through all of the range of their instruments so they get to hear what the audience hears and the subtle nuances of their own craft from someone who can often play better than them but also understands the instrument and shares a common vocabulary to describe the issues.....either that or you just have to look fantastic in a skirt and make a great Thai dinner......

j.
www.condino.com
www.kaybassrepair,com
 
Seiki, if you want to work on basses and you have an ability to fix things, just do it. Learn the rules such as they are and follow them, and whatever you do don't do anything stupid that can't be undone, but life isn't Minecraft. Do, or do not. It's binary.

I've been fixing houses and cars and bicycles and everything else that crossed my path for as long as I can remember. When I played electric bass I did my own setups and repairs. Did you know you can do a basic fret job with an emery board?

Don't do that. It violates Commandment #1: don't do anything stupid. Anyway...

My first doublebass was an old German plywood with problems. I brought it to a luthier who did some of what it needed, with the exception of seam repairs because he was in the middle of major repairs on another bass and didn't have any clamps handy, so he sent me home with a Baggie of hide glue granules and some basic instructions.

Voila, I know how to close open seams.

A year later I picked up an old King plywood that had fatal problems. It scared me to death, but I had kids and no money so I knew what I needed to do. I asked a ton of questions of the luthiers here, hat in hand and respectfully, and got the information I needed.

Now I can do top rearching, neck resets and fit a bass bar. Not to mention cleaning up really bad old work.

Two years after I started playing DB, I was given a nice old carved German that had suffered from years of awful repairs and imploded.

Nine months of nights and weekends later, that pile of matchsticks was a bass again and it sounded great. Now I know how to fit blocks, close cracks, fit cleats, steam-bend ribs, plane wood to regraduate a top with an integral bass bar, fit an OK bridge and fit a GOOD bass bar.

The guy who bought that bass from me brought it to the luthier who got me started. He called my work solid. I glowed for days.

Best of all, my kid watched me doing it and is now the only first-grader in her class who knows how to prepare hot hide glue and fit cleats. I gotta get in touch with Lipkins and bring her to the shop so I can reinforce that lesson.

My point is that if this is what you want to do, then do it, but be smart about it. There are lots of broken basses out there that aren't economically feasible for a professional to fix. If you can get those old wrecks playing again without screwing them up worse, more power to you. The world needs conservation more than it needs more new crap.
 
Seiki,
I can relate to your desire because it was mine several years ago. My fascination with all things bass led me to hang out with people doing what I wanted to do, which was to work on these big things. I actually bartered for a bass. 'I'll put a bathroom in the shop for this bass'. That allowed me to quietly observe and get to know the people doing what I wanted to do.
When a position became available setting up basses I got the gig.
Do I have the ability to do major repairs or make an instrument? No.
What I have been able to do is setup more than a thousand instruments and install a few fingerboards, reset necks and fix a bunch of cracks.
It's been an amazing experience and my employment began at 52 after a career and raising kids.

Don't discount the similarities between violin family instruments. A bass really is just a big violin in concept ant construction. Understand that first, then move on to adjusting it for its application.

You will find your opportunity.
 

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