a little further into jazz

[txhawaii]

I've come a long way from a post I made a few years back about understanding jazz and while I have done my best to study, its a never ending journey I'm glad I've taken.

Most importantly, I can now read at an amateur level but and it keeps getting easier and I know my fretboard and the usual scales, modes, etc but there is a long way to go in my jazz studies.

I have done well sticking to one guy on youtube who gives walking bass lessons (i'm not sure if I should to promote him so I won't) but he was likely way too advanced for a novice like me to start with. However, his channel has move me along and I feel I improve more and more as time goes on.

My biggest concern is now that I can do basic reading, I am (attempting) to play along to old jazz standard but I still can't grasp the concept of jazz. All I feel like I am doing it just following along but I don't know how to absorb the real knowledge behind what he is demonstrating.

The lessons will spell out a lines of a song along with the chords etc. Many times, I'll get confused with a few notes because I won't know certain cords have flats in them which makes me try to memorize more and more of the notes inside a chord. I also now can see (to some degree...) the chromatics etc inside the cords but I still can't grasp the overall picture.

I can't really see the mixolodian scale or the 2-5-1 but I can play along but I can't grasp the more heavier stuff. I know what they mean but I can't see them in the music.

How do I further myself in this pursuit? I feel now I'm just reading along but its not sinking in.

Advice?

Am I making sense?

 

[Rhythmman535]

The simple answer is to just find a good teacher that can help you put all of this together on a personal level. Music theory is music theory and that teacher does not have to be a bass player. It sounds like you can play the scales but you don't know the scales/modes and the chord relationships. There are plenty of good resources to help you fill in some of those holes but, again, a one on one session with a teacher will help identify where you are lacking in fundamental knowledge. PM me if you want to discuss further.

 

[CallMeAl]

First of all this is a huge topic of study, so be patient.

Sounds like chord spelling is in order. (Knowing what notes are in a given chord symbol.) knowing how many half steps between two given notes. Knowing what a certain scale degree looks and sounds like. (What’s the 7th scale degree of C? The b7? What do they sound like?) you don’t have to do this with a bass, you can do it on pencil and paper. Bonus points if you can get a cheap keyboard, it’s super helpful to see it laid out on the keys, and get the intervals in your ear.

Helpful resource for chords and scales:
https://ouhorns.ou.edu/Horn_Studio_Site_2015/Syllabus_&_Technique_files/Jazz scale guide.pdf

There’s a ton of theory on YouTube, no specific recommendations but I’m sure some will come along. Wouldn’t hurt to start browsing, see what clicks. If you want a book:
https://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Theory-...ocphy=9005779&hvtargid=pla-497931278317&psc=1

Here’s a great primer on walking. More about constructing, less about analyzing; but packed with good, foundational info and wouldn’t hurt to go through this:
Lessons – Walking Bass Lessons

One final note: we play a chord tone on the down beat. The next 3 beats (assuming we’re in a 4-beats-per-chord passage) we are preparing for the next chord. So often, we play chord tones or scale tones. But if a note seems out of place, it may make sense in relation to the next chord.

good luck!

 

[txhawaii]

The simple answer is to just find a good teacher that can help you put all of this together on a personal level. Music theory is music theory and that teacher does not have to be a bass player. It sounds like you can play the scales but you don't know the scales/modes and the chord relationships. There are plenty of good resources to help you fill in some of those holes but, again, a one on one session with a teacher will help identify where you are lacking in fundamental knowledge. PM me if you want to discuss further.

I've struck out with teachers in my neck of the woods as I can't find the right person.

But I think you summed it up correctly...I can play it but I do not know it.

 

[txhawaii]

First of all this is a huge topic of study, so be patient.

Sounds like chord spelling is in order. (Knowing what notes are in a given chord symbol.) knowing how many half steps between two given notes. Knowing what a certain scale degree looks and sounds like. (What’s the 7th scale degree of C? The b7? What do they sound like?) you don’t have to do this with a bass, you can do it on pencil and paper. Bonus points if you can get a cheap keyboard, it’s super helpful to see it laid out on the keys, and get the intervals in your ear.

Helpful resource for chords and scales:
https://ouhorns.ou.edu/Horn_Studio_Site_2015/Syllabus_&_Technique_files/Jazz scale guide.pdf

There’s a ton of theory on YouTube, no specific recommendations but I’m sure some will come along. Wouldn’t hurt to start browsing, see what clicks. If you want a book:
https://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Theory-...ocphy=9005779&hvtargid=pla-497931278317&psc=1

Here’s a great primer on walking. More about constructing, less about analyzing; but packed with good, foundational info and wouldn’t hurt to go through this:
Lessons – Walking Bass Lessons

One final note: we play a chord tone on the down beat. The next 3 beats (assuming we’re in a 4-beats-per-chord passage) we are preparing for the next chord. So often, we play chord tones or scale tones. But if a note seems out of place, it may make sense in relation to the next chord.

good luck!

thanks for the info. I'll take some time to look through the links. I've seen some $6.99 keyboards at Goodwill. I might pick one up sometime. It might have Grover and Big Bird on it but hell, if it teaches me...

 

[Rhythmman535]

Music Theory for the Bass Player - Ari's Bass Blog (arisbassblog.com)

 

[mambo4]

I the best advice for deep understanding one song at a time is this post from Ed Fuqua

Also realizing that Jazz has common chord progressions that show up again and again.

 

[txhawaii]

I the best advice for deep understanding one song at a time is this post from Ed Fuqua

Also realizing that Jazz has common chord progressions that show up again and again.

I've seen that Ed Fuqua post but I haven't read it for some time. I'll go back and look at it again.
thanks

 

[Matthew_84]

As well as knowing things like a C minor triad is made up of C - Eb - G, you should also realize that walking basslines aren’t always diatonic - the notes on Beats 1 and 3 are usually chord tones, but that doesn’t mean that they always will be, or that the notes in between them (beats 2 and 4) will be diatonic notes from the chord’s scale or something else altogether.

I am not sure where you’re getting lost though and what you’re following along to. It sounds like you’re reading transcriptions from a YouTube video… Are they showing the transcription of the melody (along with the chords) and you’re following along to that and playing the melody, or are they showing a transcription of the walking bassline and you’re trying to understand the theory of that, because honestly sometimes walking bass note selections are because they sound good and may not always fit the chord.

To learn to play walking basslines, you may want to pick up a book on it (Ed Fuqua’s and/or Mike Downes’ books are excellent) and understand what the typical construction of them is, and then write/compose your own off those principles, and understand how well they work (or why they may not work so well). The idea isn’t to play only a bunch of written lines, but to think through different ideas and plot them out and try them. Hear if they work or why they don’t, and then write another and write a new different line and repeat… it’s better to write 100 basslines and play each one once, rather than playing one line 100 times. Again, it’s just to try out ideas and get them in your ears as well as under your fingers (which will also help you in navigating the fingerboard).

Also, take Ed Fuqua’s advice (link posted above) and play the chord arpeggios around the neck (in different positions and in different inversions) to help you understand the chord tones of the chords, as well as their position on the neck. It will take a while, but that’s also why it’s often recommended to learn one song for a long time (like a month or so) to really learn it and let this stuff really sink in.

a lot of these things will be transferable to the next song you learn, etc.

 

[MVE]

I recommend you get a piano and learn the basics.
It sounds like you know some more advanced stuff but its not sitting upon the foundation needed to tie it all together.
To specifically answer your original question, a Major scale can be identified as 7 different intervals: 1 or Root, 2,3,4,5,6,7, octave.

A II, V, I chord sequence means you are playing the 2nd note, 5th note and then the root or first note of the scale.

Actually, you would typically play any sequence of notes from the chords corresponding to 2nd, 5th and 1st notes of the scale. (Ie for Major C scale it would be a Dm7, G Dominant 7th, and C Major 7.)

To expand further on the concept of the numbers, all scales and chords can be identified and described by which notes are flattened in relation to the Major scale. For instance, a Major triad is 1-3-5 and minor is 1-3b-5, diminished is 1-3b-5b. So, for C scale: C Maj is C-E-G; Cm is C-Eb-G; and Cdim is C-Eb-Gb.

Again, I recommend you learn this all on a piano as it is much easier, more intuitive and useful to hear the harmonic relationships on a piano.

And frankly, no bass player on the planet could ever be as good as the left hand of any number of great piano players, like Bud Powell or Oscar Peterson.

 

[txhawaii]

I recommend you get a piano and learn the basics.
It sounds like you know some more advanced stuff but its not sitting upon the foundation needed to tie it all together.
To specifically answer your original question, a Major scale can be identified as 7 different intervals: 1 or Root, 2,3,4,5,6,7, octave.

A II, V, I chord sequence means you are playing the 2nd note, 5th note and then the root or first note of the scale.

Actually, you would typically play any sequence of notes from the chords corresponding to 2nd, 5th and 1st notes of the scale. (Ie for Major C scale it would be a Dm7, G Dominant 7th, and C Major 7.)

To expand further on the concept of the numbers, all scales and chords can be identified and described by which notes are flattened in relation to the Major scale. For instance, a Major triad is 1-3-5 and minor is 1-3b-5, diminished is 1-3b-5b. So, for C scale: C Maj is C-E-G; Cm is C-Eb-G; and Cdim is C-Eb-Gb.

Again, I recommend you learn this all on a piano as it is much easier, more intuitive and useful to hear the harmonic relationships on a piano.

And frankly, no bass player on the planet could ever be as good as the left hand of any number of great piano players, like Bud Powell or Oscar Peterson.

I actually forgot about this but I live in a fancy condo and we have a music room for rent with a piano. I might spend a bit of time down there now tapping along to the old ivories.

 

[cannedveggiessuck]

This book will help you understand what you are doing and why you are doing it.

Building Walking Bass Lines (Bass Builders)
Ed Friedland

 

[txhawaii]

As well as knowing things like a C minor triad is made up of C - Eb - G, you should also realize that walking basslines aren’t always diatonic - the notes on Beats 1 and 3 are usually chord tones, but that doesn’t mean that they always will be, or that the notes in between them (beats 2 and 4) will be diatonic notes from the chord’s scale or something else altogether.

I am not sure where you’re getting lost though and what you’re following along to. It sounds like you’re reading transcriptions from a YouTube video… Are they showing the transcription of the melody (along with the chords) and you’re following along to that and playing the melody, or are they showing a transcription of the walking bassline and you’re trying to understand the theory of that, because honestly sometimes walking bass note selections are because they sound good and may not always fit the chord.

To learn to play walking basslines, you may want to pick up a book on it (Ed Fuqua’s and/or Mike Downes’ books are excellent) and understand what the typical construction of them is, and then write/compose your own off those principles, and understand how well they work (or why they may not work so well). The idea isn’t to play only a bunch of written lines, but to think through different ideas and plot them out and try them. Hear if they work or why they don’t, and then write another and write a new different line and repeat… it’s better to write 100 basslines and play each one once, rather than playing one line 100 times. Again, it’s just to try out ideas and get them in your ears as well as under your fingers (which will also help you in navigating the fingerboard).

Also, take Ed Fuqua’s advice (link posted above) and play the chord arpeggios around the neck (in different positions and in different inversions) to help you understand the chord tones of the chords, as well as their position on the neck. It will take a while, but that’s also why it’s often recommended to learn one song for a long time (like a month or so) to really learn it and let this stuff really sink in.

a lot of these things will be transferable to the next song you learn, etc.

again, I don't want to name the YouTube because I don't want to promote him nor open up the forum to bash the guy but I have learned loads from his walking bass lessons. I just finished playing along to Stella by Starlight and while the YouTuber usually has the score available, I was not able to download the notes so attached are the first two lines of the lines he wrote out.

in the video, he usually goes through each chord playing out each note giving me the information of keys i need to play.

I am understanding what I am playing, I can read the notes, but its not coming together.

If you were to ask me my goal in learning walking jazz or jazz itself, is not so much to create my own music (I think that will come later) but to take sheet music and play along. But by reading it, I should be able to understand the concepts of what and why I'm playing along. Eventually I would hope to see a chord chart and know what notes to play along to a jazz standard like Fly me to the Moon...and thats another song I can play along too...

(please forgive me if I'm using the wrong terms as I am completely self taught)

 

[Matthew_84]

Eventually I would hope to see a chord chart and know what notes to play along to a jazz standard

This is why I recommended the books I did. Ed Fuqua’s “Walking Bassics” book and Mike Downes’ book “The Jazz Bass Line Book” will explain how to build walking basslines once you know the progression. Both books have lots of examples and talk about different options/approaches. They are meant to help you understand how you can build your own lines, as well as give you the tools so you can look at a walking bassline (like the one you posted), or perhaps a transcription you pull from a song, and understand why the various notes were chosen. They are also built specifically for jazz walking basslines.

you may also want to look at Mark Levine’s “The Jazz Theory Book” to understand general music theory and how it’s often applied to jazz.

 

[bassbrad]

+1 on the method that @Ed Fuqua notes for leaning jazz tunes. His book is also quite good I've used it with several students.

What you have been studying is what I call "the cheaters jazz method" which is what you will get from YouTube videos and most books. Jazz as taught to me is more than playing the right scale, arpeggio or mode to a particular chord or over a 2 or 4 bar change but takes a full understanding of harmony, how the melody fits with the chords, the chords color the melody, and how the bass line both supports and propels the entire harmonic structure. To fluidly construct bass lines you have to know music not as some abstract alphabet that you must count sharps or flats but they must flow as easily as words you use every day, there is no substitute for that study and knowledge. To really understand a song a bass player must grasp several things simultaneously.

1. The melody first, last and always - learn the melody - if you can't execute the melody then sing it.
2. The Song Structure - there are several classic forms, that will likely help but there are always exceptions.
3. The Melody - keeping the melody running in your head is the best way to not get lost and to help the soloist
4. Unique Characteristics of every song - that is why there are so many.

When I am learning a new jazz tune I go through a process of playing the melody, the chords and then constructing a bass line. Then I like to listen to several versions of the song, paying particular attention to any important or original versions. If I am on a gig and someone calls a new tune then that song goes on my practice list to learn for next time, especially if I felt that my initial reading was less than satisfying.

Jazz is a very broad subject with different styles, different periods and different composition styles and composers ~ it is essential that a bass player understands what those all are and how & when to correctly employ them. Even walking bass lines differ whether it is a Basie, Ellington, Gershwin, Cole Porter or from the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's or 70's. BeBop is different to Cool, to Big Band, little band swing, Ragtime, Louis Armstrong to CannonBall Adderley to Miles to Monk. There are different note choices and swing feels different inflections that are literally under our fingers to get right.

I have been blessed to have had some wonderful teachers and mentors in jazz that often were far less than kind about my playing and knowledge but inspired me to become the player I continue to work to be.

For now start with 1 song to master then move on, it comes faster than you might think. Feel free to ask me any questions.

 

[txhawaii]

+1 on the method that @Ed Fuqua What you have been studying is what I call "the cheaters jazz method" which is what you will get from YouTube videos and most books.

That is a very good way to put it.

 

[Real Soon]

The most important thing, I think, in conquering chord changes, is arpeggios. Arpeggios are keys to voice leading *inside* a set of chords, and make the way chords move make sense.

ii-V7-I. If you can play the arpeggios for those in time, you've got a start. Janek Gwizdala has an instructional book related to that, but there are also lots of theory books out there tuned to bass. The idea of why a V leads to a I is something that can be an initial wall, but once it's broken, then chord progressions in general start to make much more sense. Things like secondary dominants (like, say, II7 aka V-of-vi) will start to click.

Re: secondary dominants, if you get your arpeggios tight, very soon you'll see why iii (minor) isn't right when a III7 (major) is called, and you'll KNOW where it leads after that (in blues, often vi - II7 - V7 - I).

It's out there! Pls continue this thread with any questions as I think we'll all be glad to toss in what we know.

 

[BassChuck]

There's a lot of books out there than can help... and a lot that are not so much help. Everyone learns in a different way, so you'll have to try some out and see how the fit for your level of thinking and knowledge.
One of my personal bug-a-boos with theory texts is that the nomenclature and information is more geared to letting the teacher be in control, and giving them a clear way to test. But that's not how we learn, and it's not necessarily what we need to know.
As one person said, chord knowledge. Knowing what notes are in chord and where they are (especially where the next note you need) is located on the fretboard, is essential to good jazz lines. Always work to know the fretboard better than yesterday (and never stop learning).
Here's an idea. Get yourself a copy of iReal Pro on your computer or device. call up easy tunes (like blues etc) and play along with them this way:
-1st time through, play the root on the chord change.
-2nd time, through, play the 3rd on the chord change.
-3rd time, through, play the 5th on the chord change.
-4th time, through, play the rood ton the first change and then go to the next closest note for all the other changes regardless of where that note is in the chord.
Play in time, but use a tempo that lets you keep up... and don't sweat it if you have to go really slow. Time is the important thing. This could be frustrating at first, but keep at it, it's a process, not an event. Don't get pissed at yourself for not being the best, just be better than yesterday.

 

[MVE]

again, I don't want to name the YouTube because I don't want to promote him nor open up the forum to bash the guy but I have learned loads from his walking bass lessons. I just finished playing along to Stella by Starlight and while the YouTuber usually has the score available, I was not able to download the notes so attached are the first two lines of the lines he wrote out.

in the video, he usually goes through each chord playing out each note giving me the information of keys i need to play.

I am understanding what I am playing, I can read the notes, but its not coming together.

If you were to ask me my goal in learning walking jazz or jazz itself, is not so much to create my own music (I think that will come later) but to take sheet music and play along. But by reading it, I should be able to understand the concepts of what and why I'm playing along. Eventually I would hope to see a chord chart and know what notes to play along to a jazz standard like Fly me to the Moon...and thats another song I can play along too...

(please forgive me if I'm using the wrong terms as I am completely self taught)

Again, you have to understand the concept of the numbered Major scale. (1-2-3-4-5-6-7) Everything starts with that.

In your example above the first chord is Em7b5 and the notes are just playing some of the notes of the chord backwards E(the 1 or root), D(the 7th note) C(not in the chord but still in the scale) and Bb(the flat 5).

 

[txhawaii]

Again, you have to understand the concept of the numbered Major scale. (1-2-3-4-5-6-7) Everything starts with that.

In your example above the first chord is Em7b5 and the notes are just playing some of the notes of the chord backwards E(the 1 or root), D(the 7th note) C(not in the chord but still in the scale) and Bb(the flat 5).

You pointed out a flaw in my learning as I didn't see that. I picked up my guitar counting thru the scale and your right. It is the Em7b5 scale backwards.

This is overwhelming.