I have done a decent job with knowing the fret board. The upper registry is still a bit off but its becoming more and more natural.
The iReal Pro lesson...that sounds like I'm playing old country tunes. Roots and 5s with turn arounds, no?
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a little further into jazz
- Thread starter txhawaii
- Start date
The iReal Pro lesson...that sounds like I'm playing old country tunes. Roots and 5s with turn arounds, no?
I’d say get a teacher! I really liked the ‘cheaters method’ because I feel these video courses don’t test your actual knowledge and understanding of something and realistically the student is the worst placed person to really test their own knowledge. That’s why exams in every field aren’t written up by the person taking them.
There is a lot to unpack in this genre and it takes a while to get it together. You can get a lot from YouTube and books but ultimately I always advocate having someone give you feedback from hearing you and assessing what you need to do.
If you can’t find anybody in the area then plenty of us teach online so realistically there is a whole world of teachers out there at your fingertips.
There is a lot to unpack in this genre and it takes a while to get it together. You can get a lot from YouTube and books but ultimately I always advocate having someone give you feedback from hearing you and assessing what you need to do.
If you can’t find anybody in the area then plenty of us teach online so realistically there is a whole world of teachers out there at your fingertips.
Eventually once I move into a more comfortable position, I just might look for a tb'er for actual lessons
Well, sort of, but not quite.
They are just some notes from the “chord” Em7b5. Which is the first chord of that song. The next measure will play notes from the A7, and the next measure notes from the Cm7, and so on. Typically, the bass just improvises using notes from the chord to frame or paint the chords (or harmony) while the melody is being sung or played over it.
But that is not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to explain that the seven notes of the Major scale are used to explain and define all other scales and chords.
Pick up you bass and play a G Major scale in the first position while counting 1-7.
Now play only the notes you played on 1-3-5 & 7.
Now play 2-4-6-and the octave G (we’ll call it 8). You just played an Am7.
Now play only the 5-7-9-11. You just played a D7.
Now try 2-4-6: 5-7-9: 1-3-5
There you just played a ii-V-I.
2-4-6: 5-7-9: 1-3-5
Yes, arpeggios are the chords. They’re just the notes played one at a time and not simultaneously.
No. All roots, then, all 3rds, then, all fifths. No turnaround. The idea is to learn to look at a chord and quickly know all the notes in the chord. Then after that is under the hands, look at a group of chords and see a path of notes irrespective of the root (passing tones). This is the end result of studying theory, to know what tools you have at hand.
BassChuck,
I don’t think the OP understands the terms: roots, 3rds, 5ths.
So, I was trying to explain that to him first.
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I'm not exactly sure what questions I should be asking here so I'll just ramble on...
Let's take Sinatra's Fly Me To The Moon.
I think it is self explanatory as it walks chord to chord in the circle of 4ths, correct?
I get it but what I am I supposed to be taking out of this? I feel like I memorize the line and my eyes can read the lines with my fingers following along. And since the song is so simple, I can read the chord chart and play along hitting notes around the fretboard and not just sticking inside the first five frets.
he talkingbass guy put out a lesson where he teaches the song with arpeggios and he mixes them up into different patterns like 1353 patterns, etc. I get this too.
In the end, I feel like...now what? what or how am I supposed to use this to move to the next song? At this stage of my education, I feel like I am just playing, cheating mind you, but I am unsure what is supposed to stick.
I'm not exactly sure what questions I should be asking here so I'll just ramble on...
Let's take Sinatra's Fly Me To The Moon.
I think it is self explanatory as it walks chord to chord in the circle of 4ths, correct?
I get it but what I am I supposed to be taking out of this? I feel like I memorize the line and my eyes can read the lines with my fingers following along. And since the song is so simple, I can read the chord chart and play along hitting notes around the fretboard and not just sticking inside the first five frets.
he talkingbass guy put out a lesson where he teaches the song with arpeggios and he mixes them up into different patterns like 1353 patterns, etc. I get this too.
In the end, I feel like...now what? what or how am I supposed to use this to move to the next song? At this stage of my education, I feel like I am just playing, cheating mind you, but I am unsure what is supposed to stick.
Attachments
Well, what do you want to do next? Do you want to:
1. play this song in a cover band with other people and play it note-for-note (as it is played on the recording); or
2. are you learning it to better your improvisational skills and hopefully play this song with jazz musicians, improvising as you play, and improvising your line to match what they are playing, so you are having a conversation with them through music?
…
If your goal is #1, then you’re done with this song. Just keep memorizing the line and play it the same way everytime. Move on the next song when you’re ready.
If your goal is #2, how well have you internalized this chord progression? Can you find a 10 minute version of the song (played by someone else), and improvise over the chord changes (improvising thoughtfully and knowing exactly what and why you’re playing it) and not get lost without reading from a transcription or chord chart? Are you playing along with soloists ideas and contributing your own off of them, playing the line that you’re making up in your head as you go, or are you just playing random 1353 patterns?
This is kinda why this is the “cheaters method” of learning jazz. It’s perfectly fine if your goal is #1, but and it’s helpful if it’s #2, but it also makes it easy, and being able to improvise over a 10 minute song, while never repeating the same line twice, and playing with the soloists ideas comes from hard work that does not come easily.
Generally speaking, with jazz, to really learn a tune, you should not be learning it off transcriptions. You should be learning it from your ear. Start with the melody and then then the bassline (and these two should inform you what the chord progression is). There are a few reasons for this: 1, it helps you internalize the melody and chord changes so that you can feel them and know them instinctively and you won’t need sheet music because you won’t get lost; 2. If helps you to be able to hear what the other musicians are playing - how are you going to have a conversation with them in real time, if they play a catchy line that you could repeat back to them, if you don’t know how to play it yourself? 3. It also helps you be able play what you hear in your head (which is the most important skill for an improvising musician - you don’t want to just play random patterns because you know they work theoretically. You want to capture those great musical ideas you are hearing and play them aloud accurately. This is ultimately what makes jazz such a great genre - every musician is in the moment, playing along with each other and conversing with each other musically, and it’s being captured on a recording to be listened to by everyone).
Again, I highly recommended either (or preferably both) Ed Fuqua’s “walking bassics” and/or Mike Downes’s “The Jazz Bass Line Book”. You do not want to just play 1353 lines over and over. That won’t sound good after 10 seconds. You want to understand the more musical ways of constructing walking bass lines so that you can create your own, as well as it will help you to understand why other bassists played what they they played on the bass lines you transcribed…. I feel like if you were going to do that now, you would just assume whatever they played (especially if it wasn’t diatonic) was “random” and that couldn’t be further from the truth. Every note they’re playing, they’re playing for a reason, and you should be able to identify that reason… That’s not to say that every bassline recorded is perfect, but it’s not random. If in your transcription and analysis, you find something you think could’ve been played better then that’s great! You’re growing and creating your own voice! You ultimately want to learn these tools to come up with the best basslines you possibly can on the spot and keep the music evolving. That is what will make the music musical and will set you on a path of endless discovery and refinement.
And I’ll keep the last bit short. Start playing with other people - other beginner jazz players who are seriously looking to grow. Nothing will kick your ass and get you into working shape faster than playing with others.
That's some great advice, and I wish I could like this comment more than once.
Another thing to do is writing your own lines away from the instrument, and get acquainted with walking bass cliches (and I mean this in the best way possible -- they're cliches because they work) asap. If you have a good command of your typical bread and butter lines, you're halfway there. The rest is gravy.
This is the by far the easiest solution. I can learn to parrot music like I always have and just walk away.
2. this feels like I've learned how to ask in Spanish where the bathroom is and afterwards I've been given Cervantes in Spanish and required to write a 30 page dissertation. This feels overwhelming but I would like to dive into this more.
I've always been good with my ear. My wife is from Japan and when we had visited family we inevitably
end up in karaoke and after hearing a Japanese song a few times, I can pretend to sing along even though I can't speak a lick of the language. My wife has always said my pronunciation of Japanese words and phrases has always been spot on and I've even fooled her on the phone when I've prank called her. With that said, I can in many ways pick up an instrument and mimic a song. I heard St. Thomas the other day and within seconds, I was playing along to the clarinet. Did I know what notes I was playing? Not really but that wasn't the point of me playing it. Was I spot on? No, not really but I just picked up the tune and went at it.
I think I'll spend some time off of transcripts and just playing along to a few songs just to see where it leads mentally.
To be honest, I'm a bit scared. Scared of failure to be honest...as I've never been good with language. I have spoken some Spanish in my life due to my heritage and traveling around Latin American when I was younger but its forgotten now. I tried to learn Japanese to speak to some family members but never could do it. I feel as if I'm setting myself up for a familiar failure on my end.
I have Ed's book coming to me in the mail. Lets see what happens.
Thanks for the advice. Its very solid.
Well, think it this way… The Spanish language has over 150,000 words, but for jazz (and all western music) there is only 12 notes.
You’ll be fine. As long as you keep working at it, and keep an open mind (and ear) and keep striving to learn, you’ll be succeeding. The jazz greats that are in there 80’s today are still learning… You only fail when you give up.
You can always post on this thread again (or start a new one) if you have anymore questions. I (and I’m sure others) will keep an eye on it.
One tip about Ed Fuqua’s book that I didn’t realize on my first (or maybe even second) read through. At the start of section 1 part 2, he gives you exercises of connecting the roots of the chords and gradually expands upon it to add other elements to make the lines more interesting and musical.
In the paragraph explaining this, he says “take a tune of the chord progression from one of the CD tracks here and then go through the following steps”. He then shows how he applies this exercise to a 12-bar Bb Blues. By all means, follow through with his exercises as written, but understand what your playing, and when you go to learn a new song (like “Fly Me to the Moon”), apply these exercises from his book to the chord progression of the new tune you’re learning. This is how you learn to walk and improvise over the current song you’re learning. Start slow and learn the fingerboard and notes in the chords.
this is will take time of course, but the juice is worth the squeeze.
oh and another tip: once you understand the building blocks of walking bass lines, start writing your own away from your bass. Use the knowledge you have to write something interesting, or something new, or try something that you wouldn’t have tried just walking along to the song.
the purpose of this isn’t to write lines to memorize, but to try new ideas and write lines you like and to get them in your ear and under your fingers. Try transposing them to other keys to really lock them in. Also, and I mentioned it earlier, but it’s better to write 100 lines and play each one once, then play one line 100 times.
Have fun and don’t stress the journey too much - in fact, embrace it and have fun. Cheers
