A Question About Modes

[SR1200 Thunder]

My instructor has me writing out the tabs for the various 7th chord progressions in each of the modes (Ionian, Dorian, Phrigian, etc.) as my homework, and I have gotten myself somewhat confused. I am hoping that some friendly bass players can help me.

I was told to work primarily with the Key of "G" at first, so that is what I will use to explain my confusion. We started with the Locrian position and he told me to place my second finger on the 3rd fret of the 4th (E) string. Obviously that is the root G and places the entire chord progression (G-A-B-C-D-E-F#) under my hand. And then he said that I should play all of the notes for each 7th chord progression, both above and below the root, but always beginning and ending on the root. (example: G-B-D-F#-G-B-G-F#-D-B-G-F#-G, or; E3-A2-A5-D4-D5-G4-D5-D4-A5-A2-E3-E2-E3)

When we came to the Ionian Position, he told me to place my 1st finger on the 3rd fret of the 4th (E) string, and to practice using frets 3-7 and play every note both above and below the root for each 7th chord progression. However, in this case, he said that what marked this position as "Ionian" is that the "G" located at E3 would be the lowest note that I could grab.

From there, he told me to write out the rest of the chord progressions for the other modes. I left there thinking that for "Dorian Mode" in the key of G the lowest note that I should be able to grab would be the "A" located at E5. And then for "Phrigian Mode," in the key of G, the lowest note I should be able to grab would be the "B" located at E7. And so forth and so on.

As I sat down to write out the tabs for these modes and chord progressions, I decided to look up a little more information on them. But what I found was a bunch of crazy information talking about "L's" and "Q's. Other sites completely ignoring the E string all together and playing entire 7th chord progressions in every mode only using the A-D-G strings.

So my question is, "Was my instructor correct in what he explained to me, or is the subject of modes completely ambiguous?" (If anybody is wondering why I am not asking my instructor about these discrepancies, I have only seen him 3 times and am still evaluating whether or not he is a competent teacher)

Thanks for any help that the community can offer me.

 

[Lee Moses]

The subject of modes is not ambiguous at all. But since there are different places you can play notes on the fretboard, there are different places you can play modes on the fretboard.

I think you are confusing his terms "Ionian (or whatever mode) Position" with "Ionian (or whatever) Mode." I don't recall hearing them described as "Ionian Positition," or "Dorian Position" as such, but I think I see what your instructor is saying. A Dorian simply means A-B-C-D-E-F#-G as the scalar notes and A-C-E-G as the chord tones/arpeggio. For instructional purposes he is having you begin each mode with your first finger on the root note. Thus, he is defining having your first finger on the A for A Dorian as "Dorian Position."

The mode is the notes (and its relationship to a major scale); the position is simply where you put your fingers.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

My instructor has me writing out the tabs for the various 7th chord progressions in each of the modes (Ionian, Dorian, Phrigian, etc.) as my homework, and I have gotten myself somewhat confused. I am hoping that some friendly bass players can help me.

Modes are confusing and asking questions on the Internet normally gets confusing answers. Read on....

I was told to work primarily with the Key of "G" at first, so that is what I will use to explain my confusion. We started with the Locrian position and he told me to place my second finger on the 3rd fret of the 4th (E) string. Obviously that is the root G and places the entire chord progression (G-A-B-C-D-E-F#) under my hand. And then he said that I should play all of the notes for each 7th chord progression, both above and below the root, but always beginning and ending on the root. (example: G-B-D-F#-G-B-G-F#-D-B-G-F#-G, or; E3-A2-A5-D4-D5-G4-D5-D4-A5-A2-E3-E2-E3)

Well first G, A, B, C, D, E, F# is not Locrian, it's the G major scale which can be called the G Ionian mode.

When we came to the Ionian Position, he told me to place my 1st finger on the 3rd fret of the 4th (E) string, and to practice using frets 3-7 and play every note both above and below the root for each 7th chord progression. However, in this case, he said that what marked this position as "Ionian" is that the "G" located at E3 would be the lowest note that I could grab.

That is correct. I think what he wants you to play is G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, F#, E, D, C, B, A, G or take the G major scale (Ionian) up the scale and then back down.

From there, he told me to write out the rest of the chord progressions for the other modes. I left there thinking that for "Dorian Mode" in the key of G the lowest note that I should be able to grab would be the "A" located at E5. And then for "Phrigian Mode," in the key of G, the lowest note I should be able to grab would be the "B" located at E7. And so forth and so on.

OK there are several ways to learn modes - Relative where the root note walks, i.e. G Ionian, A Dorian, i.e. you walk the root but the notes stay the same, Starting on G you are playing the Ionian mode of the G major scale. If you started on the A note and played from A to A you would have played the A Dorian mode., B to B would be the B Phrygian mode, etc. If the notes stay the same and you walk the root that is the relative way to play the modes. There is another way, the Parallel way where the root notes stays the same and the notes of the mode change. I use Parallel and Dorian to me is the same as G Ionian but the 3rd, and 7th scale degree are flatted. It gets confusing. Why did I bring it up? Some of your Internet answers may be coming to you from relative or parallel. I think this will help; Click on Invalid Link Removed However, I really think you need to be asking your instructor this question and let him answer it in a way that is not confusing to you.

As I sat down to write out the tabs for these modes and chord progressions, I decided to look up a little more information on them. But what I found was a bunch of crazy information talking about "L's" and "Q's. Other sites completely ignoring the E string all together and playing entire 7th chord progressions in every mode only using the A-D-G strings.

Yep that can be done..... mode charts - Google Search There is just too much stuff on the Internet. Ask your instructor.

So my question is, "Was my instructor correct in what he explained to me, or is the subject of modes completely ambiguous?" (If anybody is wondering why I am not asking my instructor about these discrepancies, I have only seen him 3 times and am still evaluating whether or not he is a competent teacher)

Yes your instructor is taking you down a relative modal tab road. So far what I've heard he is correct in what he says. Send your post to your instructor. Let him answer in a way that will not be confusing.

Good luck.

 

[mambo4]

And then he said that I should play all of the notes for each 7th chord progression, both above and below the root, but always beginning and ending on the root. (example: G-B-D-F#-G-B-G-F#-D-B-G-F#-G

You keep writing "chord progression" , but you are discussing only scales and arpeggios.
There are no chord progressions happening in this exercise.

So my question is, "Was my instructor correct in what he explained to me, or is the subject of modes completely ambiguous?"

as mentioned, modes are not ambiguous; but they various ways modes can be explained are confusing
and the various ways to finger anything on a bass are indeed ambiguous.

frankly, I would suggest you stop worrying about modes and modal terms focus on the
names, sounds and fingerings of the chord arpeggios,
which can be fully understood without ever bringing up modes.
modes can wait.

 

[Mushroo]

Your teacher is not "wrong" but I think there are other things he could be teaching you that would get you in a band with other musicians playing gigs sooner (if that is your goal).

What you need to understand is that music theory concepts exist independent from the physicality of the instrument. "G Lydian Mode" (or whatever) is a set of 7 notes that are always the same whether you play them on the bass guitar or the piccolo. G Lydian is the same whether you play it on the E string of your bass, the G string, up high, down low, if you are in drop-D tuning, etc. Your teacher is teaching you non-standard terminology (I've never heard of "Locrian Position" before and I've been playing a loooong time) that probably will not help you communicate with musicians who haven't studied with your teacher and/or who play instruments other than the bass. If you wrote a song and trying to teach your band how to play it, "my fingers are in what my teacher calls 'Locrian Position'" is not helpful information; they would probably rather know what key it's in, what is the chord progression, what is the time signature, is there a bridge section, are there intros/outros/breaks, which parts are quiet vs loud, etc.

It sounds like your teacher may be leading you down the wrong path of thinking of modes and scales as shapes on the fingerboard which leads to a mental trap. In my opinion you should be learning the intervals and sound of each mode. For example if you know "Lydian mode is 1-2-3-#4-5-6-7" then you can play any of the 12 Lydian modes starting from any fret on any string anywhere on the bass guitar. You can even practice without your bass, for example on your commute to work/school, by singing the modes. Then you will have a good ear to hear things like "Do-Re-Mi" (from Sound of Music) is in Ionian mode, "Greensleeves" is Dorian mode, etc.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I personally don't think that learning shapes is as evil as it might appear on the surface. I know of several fantastic musicians who play on a professional level who say that they are "primarily shape players". The trick is not to fall into the idea that if someone learns one way, i.e. shape playing, that they never learn anything else e.g. ear training, in the interim. It's not as though, learning something one way in the beginning, precludes every other type of learning forever afterward, amen... It's all a brick by brick process. One thing at a time.

Having said that, the vast majority of teachers seem to have a very convoluted method of teaching modes, that to me, is neither efficient nor logical. The way I was taught to think of modes is so logical, that whenever I see any other explanation, it makes me go ***... I realize that comment doesn't help the OP, but it's just another example.

Basically the connection between Modes and Arpeggios is that every arpeggio "lives inside of" every mode, meaning on a 5 string bass, if you break every mode into a 3 note per string scale (never altering that formula) one can play every diatonic arpeggio from one modal position. That's as simple and efficient as modes will ever get.

As you move into the different modes, you can play all of the diatonic arpeggios from that modal position. They are all right there under your fingers. As you play the arpeggios within the modal shapes over the fingerboard, you eventually learn to play every arpeggio from every possible 4 note grouping starting from various fingers. It teaches you to run the fingerboard almost by default.

So giving respect to the various ways of teaching and learning, that method worked well for me as compared to any other method I've seen since. There's more to the actual execution of it all, and just "getting it" but that's just par for the course. Once you get it, modes become just "duh" and not the thing people like to put off as the last thing they ever need to learn, which I know now is absolutely not true.

 

[Mushroo]

Shapes are great, muscle memory is a wonderful thing.

I just don't like it when teachers use shapes on the fretboard to teach music theory 101. In my opinion elementary music theory should be taught away from the instrument using pencil, staff paper, and (most importantly) ears.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

(mushroo approves of this teaching method) "The C Major scale is made up of the notes C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C. It has no sharps or flats. Like all major scales the interval pattern is 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. Here is one of the most popular fingerings to a play a C Major scale on the bass. Can you come up with any other fingerings on your own?"

(mushroo disapproves of this method) "The C Major scale is defined as 2-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4, starting with your 2nd finger on the 8th fret of the E string."

But here is the MOST CONFUSING thing about the OP's teacher's method. Let's say I am learning "Brown Eyed Girl" by Van Morrison. My 2nd finger is on the root note G at the 3rd fret of the E string. The teacher calls this "Locrian Position." So logically, that means "Brown Eyed Girl" must be in the key of G Locrian. Right? Right? RIGHT????

If you use the same set of names for finger positions as you do for modes then you are misleading the student into thinking each of those finger positions can only be used to play the mode that shares the name.

 

[mambo4]

If you use the same set of names for finger positions as you do for modes then you are misleading the student into thinking each of those finger positions can only be used to play the mode that shares the name.

Nailed it.

 

[Spin Doctor]

...But here is the MOST CONFUSING thing about the OP's teacher's method. Let's say I am learning "Brown Eyed Girl" by Van Morrison. My 2nd finger is on the root note G at the 3rd fret of the E string. The teacher calls this "Locrian Position." So logically, that means "Brown Eyed Girl" must be in the key of G Locrian. Right? Right? RIGHT????

If you use the same set of names for finger positions as you do for modes then you are misleading the student into thinking each of those finger positions can only be used to play the mode that shares the name.

I'm with you on all of that...

Maybe the reason his teacher calls it the "Locrian Position" is that if you create a 2 octave Locrian scale using the 3 notes per string method I described, the fingering becomes 1-2-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4, 1-3-4, 1--2--4 (on a 5 string bass). In the key of G major, the Locrian Mode starts on the F#. If you notice, that fingering teaches you the "normal" major scale fingering by default. Simply avoid playing the first finger (F#) at the start of the scale and you have G major.

I agree that he should not be confusing mode names with certain finger positions...

 

[Mushroo]

One last rant, just to hammer home the concept, and then I think I've made my point:

"Brown Eyed Girl" by Van Morrison (I'm just using this as a random example) is in the key of G Major.
No matter what string you play it on, or whether you are playing it high or low on the neck, "Brown Eyed Girl" is still in G Major.
It is impossible to play "Brown Eyed Girl" in the mode of A Dorian, or B Phrygian, or C Lydian, or D Mixolydian, or E Aeolian, or F# Locrian.
"Brown Eyed Girl" is not a modal tune and you don't need any Greek words to explain it musically. Discussion of modes is completely irrelevant to 99% of the 3- and 4-chord songs you hear on the radio.

 

[Spin Doctor]

One last rant, just to hammer home the concept, and then I think I've made my point:

"Brown Eyed Girl" by Van Morrison (I'm just using this as a random example) is in the key of G Major.
No matter what string you play it on, or whether you are playing it high or low on the neck, "Brown Eyed Girl" is still in G Major.
It is impossible to play "Brown Eyed Girl" in the mode of A Dorian, or B Phrygian, or C Lydian, or D Mixolydian, or E Aeolian, or F# Locrian.
"Brown Eyed Girl" is not a modal tune and you don't need any Greek words to explain it musically. Discussion of modes is completely irrelevant to 99% of the 3- and 4-chord songs you hear on the radio.

Yeah... But just because certain information doesn't apply in certain situations, is not a good enough reason for me to not know it... Simply don't apply it to that situation. I think people tend to confuse terminology and application... Don't waste time getting hung up on that...

Besides, you can't play any song in anything other than the key it's written in. Just because the other modes seem to fit harmonically because (surprise, surprise) they ALL happen to be the same notes, doesn't make it correct to call it anything except G major. And THE ONLY reason it's in G major is that's where it resolves to. That's where home is. Don't bother wasting even one microsecond trying to call it something else. Why would you want to anyway?

It just is what it is. A sparrow isn't an eagle just because they both have wings...

 

[Spin Doctor]

To the OP, I would recommend you work with your instructor to map out all the modes in 3 note per string groupings and then learn the arpeggios within those modal shapes. That will go a long way in removing the ambiguous approach he seems to be taking as every mode will have a specific starting point that corresponds directly with the Mode name.

He should be able to take it from there.

 

[LeeNunn]

I agree with all the comments above. I also recommend associating modes with specific chords rather than entire songs. For example, you might play a G major scale (Ionian mode) over a Gmaj7 chord. Three notes per string in every position, from the lowest position to the highest and back down again. I see value in hearing a scale in the context of a chord. If you need a way to create a single chord with a rhythm track, consider iReal Pro. You play a Gmaj7 chord in any style (e.g., Latin) for as long as it takes. You can adjust the tempo to your ability to keep up. If you need help associating a mode with a chord quality, check out Jamey Aebersold.

 

[friendlybass]

modes are really simple. Ionian (major) is built on the 1st note of the scale, in G that's G. Dorian is built one the 2nd note, A. So a Dorian scale on A would go A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A. The phrygian on the 3rd note, Lydian on the 4th, myxolydian on the 5th, aeolian (minor) on the 6th, and Locrian on the 7th. So if I understood your post right he had you playing an Ionian (major) scale built on G the whole time, because locrian in the key of G would go F#-G-A-B-C-D-E-F# and a locrian scale built on G would go G-Ab-Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G.
The combination of half and whole steps is what determines the mode, not your hand position or the way you finger the scale.
Hope this helps I could explain this I person in 2 seconds the internet is hard to get these ideas across through.
EDIT: Read the OP again, you're on the right track, your teacher probably wants to get you moving up and down the neck and more comfortable shifting your hand instead of moving across the strings.
I'd tab it out and practice 3 ways, 1) the whole scale on 1 string so you learn that pattern 2) the spread out formation your teach has you doing and 3) the block type shapes you're seeing online. PM me if you want my tabs!!

 

[joebar]

modes are really simple. Ionian (major) is built on the 1st note of the scale, in G that's G. Dorian is built one the 2nd note, A. So a Dorian scale on A would go A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A. The phrygian on the 3rd note, Lydian on the 4th, myxolydian on the 5th, aeolian (minor) on the 6th, and Locrian on the 7th. So if I understood your post right he had you playing an Ionian (major) scale built on G the whole time, because locrian in the key of G would go F#-G-A-B-C-D-E-F# and a locrian scale built on G would go G-Ab-Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G.
The combination of half and whole steps is what determines the mode, not your hand position or the way you finger the scale.
Hope this helps I could explain this I person in 2 seconds the internet is hard to get these ideas across through.
EDIT: Read the OP again, you're on the right track, your teacher probably wants to get you moving up and down the neck and more comfortable shifting your hand instead of moving across the strings.
I'd tab it out and practice 3 ways, 1) the whole scale on 1 string so you learn that pattern 2) the spread out formation your teach has you doing and 3) the block type shapes you're seeing online. PM me if you want my tabs!!

the easiest way to get the gist of modes is to hear a mode's given flavour in a tune.
listen to dorian type progressions and learn to pick out the natural 6.
listen to Lydian type progressions and learn to pick out the #4
to me, that is when the modes start to add up and become practical.

 

[OnederTone]

... no one railed on the fact that the teacher was having him transcribe them in TAB?

Really Talkbass?

Seriously though... modes aren't hard once you realize they aren't the magic scales that make people musical instrument gods. They're just a way to slice up the major scale...

 

[sambass0124]

To understand mode, my suggestion is to define modes like this:
Ionian 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Aeolian 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

To simplify:
Ionian: major
Dorian: minor with natural 6th
Phrygian: minor with flat 2nd
Lydian: major with #4
Mixolydian: major with b7
Aeolian: natural minor
Locrian: flat all notes except root and 4th

Then, play each modes starting from the same notes, and hear their difference, for example:
Ionian: G A B C D E F#
Dorian: G A Bb C D E F
...and so on.


Hope this help.

 

[7dollarbologna]

Dude, learn Nashville notation - it's much easier to learn this stuff.

 

[cnltb]

Your instructor has you write out TAB?!?!?!?

BIG warning lights come on at this end, reading that...

 

[FunkMetalBass]

... no one railed on the fact that the teacher was having him transcribe them in TAB?

Really Talkbass?

Seriously though... modes aren't hard once you realize they aren't the magic scales that make people musical instrument gods. They're just a way to slice up the major scale...

Your instructor has you write out TAB?!?!?!?

BIG warning lights come on at this end, reading that...

In the instructor's defense, TAB is the only thing that makes sense, here. The instructor is trying to get the student to figure out how to arpeggiate the same chord in different finger positions. If he were writing it out in notation, it wouldn't convey any sort of positioning information.