A Question About Modes

[MalcolmAmos]

Yes I agree. While I would not have the student off into modes and tabs at this point of his journey, the instructor has decided to use that as a teaching method. We should not interfere with the direction and plan he has for his student.

The student teacher relationship needs to be built upon trust. At this point we should not be throwing cold water.

Of course, IMO.

 

[static0verdrive]

I will go back and digest each post here but I wanted to emphasize / clarify what some have mentioned:

• We aren't talking Chord Progressions here. We can get into that in another thread but it's unrelated to scales/modes/arpeggios (which are what we're discussing here - you'd play however many notes from one of these under EACH chord in a progression, so let's just say we haven't 'progressed' that far yet! )
• If you're looking at G major, then the notes are as you said. G has only one sharp, F#. All the other modes of G use the same notes, just start somewhere other than G. For example, A Dorian is a mode of G Major, and goes A B C D E F# G A. It's not related to A Major or A Minor in any way, it's related to G Major (see the notes?). In other words, if you practice all the modes related to G Major, you will only ever be playing those same notes, you'll just start and end on whatever other note. I personally started with C Major instead of G just so there were NO flats or sharps (helped me learn where notes were on the fretboard) and now I'm trying to repeat for other keys.
• Scales/modes are great, particularly for solos or fills, but as you learn these make mental notes of where the third note, fifth, and seventh are as you do each one. These are the "chord tones" and much more important than other notes in the scale or mode as they will ALWAYS sound good under a guitar chord whereas fourths, sixths, etc can really depend...

I hope this helps. I think others said this too but it didn't come across as clear, at least to me.

 

[Spin Doctor]

In the instructor's defense, TAB is the only thing that makes sense, here. The instructor is trying to get the student to figure out how to arpeggiate the same chord in different finger positions. If he were writing it out in notation, it wouldn't convey any sort of positioning information.

Is that what he was trying to teach? Honestly, I couldn't tell. If that's the case, I don't think he should be trying to teach the fundamentals of arpeggios, while mired in the middle of the modes. That's way too much information for a new student to assimilate at the same time. In my opinion, the instructor should just pick a spot in the middle of the fretboard, like the note E, on the 7th fret of the A string. And then just show him the arpeggios in isolation, starting from that one "E", from each finger position, for all the chord qualities.

Once the student gets the feel and understanding of arpeggios down, then the he could show him how they fit into the modes.

 

[Mushroo]

I slept on it and figured out what is wrong with this teacher's approach. Bear with me.

Often in learning, we use mnemonics as a short cut. An example would be "Every Good Boy Deserves Fudge" to learn the G clef. The whole point of a mnemonic is that it needs to be easier to remember than what you're trying to learn.

I think what happened in this case is that the teacher knows the modes quite well. So the teacher is using his prior knowledge of modes as a mnemonic to play the major scale in different fingerings starting from any note, because that is the easiest way for the teacher to conceptualize it.

The problem is that, if the student doesn't already have the modes well-memorized, or doesn't often play in modal genres, then the mnemonic is useless to that student because it is more complicated than the actual concept the student was trying to trying to learn in the first place!

An analogy would be if I said "it's easy to learn to count to ten: all you need to do is remember the first ten letters of the alphabet, and that A=1, B=2, etc." Why not just learn the numerals 1-10 and leave the alphabet out of the discussion?

It is easier just to say "Here's a fingering starting from the 1st degree of the major scale. Here's a fingering starting from the 2nd degree. Here's a fingering from the 3rd degree." And so on. The only mnemonics necessary in this case are to know the numbers from 1-7 and the construction of the major scale.

It's also worth mentioning that musicians already have a common vocabulary word for "playing in different regions of the neck." It is called position and is usually defined as "the fret at which you place your 1st finger." So instead of saying "I am playing G Major in the Locrian Position" you could say "I am playing G Major in 2nd position." This is standard terminology and will allow you to communicate your ideas to a wider group of musicians than your teacher's non-standard mnemonic.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I will go back an digest each post here but I wanted to emphasize / clarify what some have mentioned:

• We aren't talking Chord Progressions here. We can get into that in another thread but it's unrelated to scales/modes/arpeggios (which are what we're discussing here - you'd play however many notes from one of these under EACH chord in a progression, so let's just say we haven't 'progressed' that far yet! )
• If you're looking at G major, then the notes are as you said. G has only one sharp, F#. All the other modes of G use the same notes, just start somewhere other than G. For example, A Dorian is a mode of G Major, and goes A B C D E F# G A. It's not related to A Major or A Minor in any way, it's related to G Major (see the notes?). In other words, if you practice all the modes related to G Major, you will only ever be playing those same notes, you'll just start and end on whatever other note. I personally started with C Major instead of G just so there were NO flats or sharps (helped me learn where notes were on the fretboard) and now I'm trying to repeat for other keys.
• Scales/modes are great, particularly for solos or fills, but as you learn these make mental notes of where the third note, fifth, and seventh are as you do each one. These are the "chord tones" and much more important than other notes in the scale or mode as they will ALWAYS sound good under a guitar chord whereas fourths, sixths, etc can really depend...

I hope this helps. I think others said this too but it didn't come across as clear, at least to me.

I'm having trouble understanding what your lesson is all about... What is the objective? The more information you submit, the less I get it. I should just let the guys who know what this is about handle it.

 

[Spin Doctor]

...It is easier just to say "Here's a fingering starting from the 1st degree of the major scale. Here's a fingering starting from the 2nd degree. Here's a fingering from the 3rd degree." And so on. The only mnemonics necessary in this case are to know the numbers from 1-7 and the construction of the major scale.

An analogy would be if I said "it's easy to learn to count to ten: all you need to do is remember the first ten letters of the alphabet, and that A=1, B=2, etc." Why not just learn the numerals 1-10 and leave the alphabet out of the discussion?

Exactly. This is being made way harder than it needs to be.

 

[Schlyder]

I suggest looking for a better teacher. And for now I would suggest not worrying about modes at all.

 

[bass12]

In the instructor's defense, TAB is the only thing that makes sense, here. The instructor is trying to get the student to figure out how to arpeggiate the same chord in different finger positions. If he were writing it out in notation, it wouldn't convey any sort of positioning information.

No need for TAB - you just write the position above and the finger below. No instructor I ever had incorporated TAB into the lessons.

 

[friendlybass]

In the instructor's defense, TAB is the only thing that makes sense, here. The instructor is trying to get the student to figure out how to arpeggiate the same chord in different finger positions. If he were writing it out in notation, it wouldn't convey any sort of positioning information.

There's nothing wrong with Tabs, its the easiest way to shorthand for bass and honestly reading sheet music isn't the end all of notation and can be really unhelpful for learning scales and modes because it doesn't directly translate to your instrument. Every single method book for every instrument I've ever seen starts on some sort of tablature before going to traditional notation.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I suggest looking for a better teacher. And for now I would suggest not worrying about modes at all.

I don't think ignoring a vital part of music is a good option. Everything takes time to learn anything and the sooner the better I think. I know a lot of people don't think modes important, but knowing modes makes creating basslines child's play. I can create a line for any song in probably less than 5 minutes. It's an absolute key piece of knowledge. People try to make modes about terminology. Forget that... It's about having the ability to manipulate music at will.

Not saying you don't know them, but I think peoples general ignorance of them does bass players a great disservice. They somehow think it's easier to stay unaware of them.

 

[Schlyder]

I don't think ignoring a vital part of music is a good option. Everything takes time to learn anything and the sooner the better I think. I know a lot of people don't think modes important, but knowing modes makes creating basslines child's play. I can create a line for any song in probably less than 5 minutes. It's an absolute key piece of knowledge. People try to make modes about terminology. It's about having the ability to manipulate music at will.

Not saying you don't know them, but I think peoples general ignorance of them does bass players a great disservice. They somehow think it's easier to stay unaware of them.

LOL I know the major scale modes. I know a helluva lot more too. And I never said ignore them. I said to not worry about them for now. I hope your reading music is better than your English.
The OP is obviously not ready for that information yet. The OP isn't even using correct terminology. That is a big red flag that the OPs "teacher" is not doing his job.

 

[Spin Doctor]

LOL I know the major scale modes. I know a helluva lot more too. And I never said ignore them. I said to not worry about them for now. I hope your reading music is better than your English.
The OP is obviously not ready for that information yet. The OP isn't even using correct terminology. That is a big red flag that the OPs "teacher" is not doing his job.

Not trying to make it personal dude... But hey, I'm glad you know so much!

 

[Smooth_bass88]

As a general rule, it's never a good idea to think of modes (or any/all scales for that matter) in terms of 'shapes' or 'positions'. It's better to know the actual notes and intervals AND how they sound to your ear. For example, play an A Mixolydian mode on just the A string only. Now do Bb mixo, then B mixo and so on...only on one string.

 

[Schlyder]

.....Not saying you don't know them, but I think peoples general ignorance of them does bass players a great disservice. They somehow think it's easier to stay unaware of them.

I'd say you made it personal. I'd say you just assumed I don't know *** I'm talking about.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I'd say you made it personal. I'd say you just assumed I don't know *** I'm talking about.

That's not what I meant at all. I apologize if my comment was misunderstood.

 

[SR1200 Thunder]

Wow!!! Thanks to everybody for your help. I think I understand a lot of what people said to me. However reading some of the posts I'm not sure that I explained the exercise correctly. Let me try to clarify:

First of all, I'm not an absolute beginner with the bass. I have been trying to teach myself for almost 3 years now. I can play almost 40 songs, but I can't write anything original that sounds even remotely interesting. So my instructor and I have been trying to figure out where I am at withinin my musical knowledge.

That began with the "chord progressions" which he explained as being in "locrian position." And even though I didn't write it all out (trying to save space), I did actually write out and practice the entire chord progression in the key of G (G Maj7-A min7-B min7-C Maj7-D dom7-E min7-F# m7b5). In that hand position, with my second finger at the G (E3), practice the G Maj 7th chord arpeggio (E3-A2-A5-D4-D5-G4-D5-D4-A5-A2-E3-E2-E3) beginning and ending on the root of G. Then, keeping my hand in the same position, practice the A min 7th chord arpeggio (E5-A3-D2-D5-G2-G5-G2-D5-D2-A3-E5-E3-E5). Followed by the B min 7th chord arpeggio, the C Maj 7th chord arpeggio, D dom 7th chord arpeggio, E min 7th chord arpeggio, and F# min 7b5 arpeggio. But always keeping the same hand positioning with my 2nd finger on the G (E3).

That way the movable shapes of the chords were realized. For transcription into any other key, hand position would change, chord shapes would not.

Now he has asked me to do the same thing with what he called the Ionian, Dorian, Phrigian "positions." I assumed that this would teach me movable chord shapes from other positions. Obviously how a G Maj 7th chord is played using frets 3-7 would be different than if you are confined to frets 5-9.

But I think that ultimately my primary concern has been addressed here. Either I didn't understand either the purpose of the exercise, or I misunderstood his explanation. Either way, I probably need to question him further on what exactly it is that he is trying to teach me.

Thanks again for everybody's help. If you have any other input after reading my clarification I would gladly accept it.

 

[Schlyder]

As I said. This material is beyond the scope of the student's present understanding. He is getting inadequate instruction from this "teacher".
The Op's time would be better spent working on some other things for now, and searching for a better teacher.

 

[bass12]

I wonder how many students have been unnecessarily confused and intimidated by the teaching of modes...

 

[Lee Moses]

The major scale modes is pretty basic stuff. It's been a few decades now, but I think I learned the modes in my first couple months of lessons.

 

[Smooth_bass88]

In the instructor's defense, TAB is the only thing that makes sense, here. The instructor is trying to get the student to figure out how to arpeggiate the same chord in different finger positions. If he were writing it out in notation, it wouldn't convey any sort of positioning information.

TAB should never, ever be used when learning basic music theroy. As a matter of fact, it should never ever be used PERIOD. Just read the notes, and figure out your own positioning- the bass neck already right in your hand.