I gave up a long time ago on this issue. I make sure I sound good on stage and trust the soundguy to do whatever he wants so FOH sounds good.
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A question that I couldn't answer (DI box-related)
- Thread starter Alvaro Martín Gómez A.
- Start date
Definitely a solid approach, IMO - after all, worrying about the FOH sound can be enough of a distraction that it diverts too much of your focus from playing to the best of your abilities...
Because I always use wireless, I get out in front a bit while the soundman is dialing in my bass sound thru the FOH, and also a bit during soundcheck - then don't worry about it after that, so that I can get down to the business of playing...
- georgestrings
I also agree with Jimmy - unfortunately, *some* soundmen *think* they're also producers...
- georgestrings
BTW, how many of you bring your own DI box (I mean, not just using the amp's balanced output) to gigs? (Speaking of pedalboards, I haven't seen the first one with a DI box)
Alvaro Martín Gómez A.;11832755 said:
Well, I always take one with me that serves as a sort of "backup amp" - it's a Countryman 85... I've never had to use it yet, but I've already made sure it sounds very good, incase I ever have to... My amp's DI sounds great, and I always run it Post-EQ, so that I get a little of my preamp's sound thru the FOH - but my situation is definitely different than yours... My band has final say on all sound issues in 95% of my gigs - a majority of the time, the soundman is actually working for us, and no one else...
In your situation, I'd definitely get a good one, and have it with me always...
- georgestrings
I bring a VT Bass Deluxe to all my gigs, which has a DI. I don't use it as a DI on most of my gigs but I have used it before. Also used to bring a Countryman. Usually though, I just plugged into the back of my amp and used whatever crap house DI they had if there was a problem with the amp DI. But now I'm all about micing, so the DI rarely gets used.
- Jan 27, 2010
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- Endorsing Artist: Genz Benz Amplification
I have enough tweakables on my pedalboard that it's usually not necessary to argue with the soundguy. I prefer them to take the post EQ feed from my amp, but if they insist on whatever crap DI they have I just make sure and adjust my tone from the board instead of the amp.
And yes, I do have a DI on my board.
And yes, I do have a DI on my board.
I'm OK with a DI when I have to, but I hate dead clean DI's with treble past 5k, and I still greatly prefer a mic'ed cab with no DI. I don't care if it takes an extra minute to set up.
This is starting to get close to violating the "no bashing soundmen" rule. Again.
I stand up for soundmen in here because I am one (sometimes) and no one else will. First, let's just get past the "sound men are idiots, have tin ears, try to be producers..." stuff. True, there are different levels of competency in soundmen, just as there are in musicians. But given that the soundman is competent and works for the venue, the PA system is his (sometimes literally), and his is the last word. He knows the system, he knows the room, and he knows what the venue owner expects from the sound. He probably works far many more shows in a week than the bands playing the venue. He will do his best to accommodate the band's desires, but at the end of the day it is his hands on the FOH board and his butt on the line if the venue owner is unhappy. He was there long before the band got there and he will be there long after they are gone, and the authority to whom he has to answer is clear.
If you want things to be just so with the sound, hire your own guy to mix you. Someone who is intimately acquainted with the band's music and desired sound will (assuming he is competent) obviously do a better job with the mix than someone who has never heard the band. Understand, though, that the house sound guy is still where the buck stops and your guy may not be able to get everything he wants (the house EQ is probably off limits to him*). A contract rider (or even something scrawled in sharpie on a napkin) which delineates the band's desires and expectations ahead of time can be a huge help in these situations.
Most of the time, none of this is a problem. Competent folks (musicians and soundmen alike) who are accomplished at what they do will come together and rise to the occasion with a minimum of friction. Some compromise is sometimes required, and cooler heads will prevail. The show must go on.
Most of what I see in here on this subject are straw man arguments, anyway. Most competent soundmen endeavor to be as transparent an interface between the band and the audience as possible.
*Story on myself: When I was still wet behind the ears as a soundman, I came into an established venue with a band to run their FOH on the house system. Things were going well (I thought) until I lifted the plexiglass cover on the house EQ and started "improving" it. Within a couple of minutes I found myself ejected from the sound booth. Lesson learned.
Speaking of strawman arguments...
Personally, I think the no bashing soundmen rule is not a good one, with all respect to Josh. If you are a good soundman, then you have no reason to take it personally. But if you are a bad soundman, maybe you can learn a little something from the bashing and realize that maybe your repertoire needs broadened a bit and your skillset needs sharpening. That soundman rule totally disallows for that possibility.
It's just like "American Idol" now. I bailed halfway through this past season because it was obvious that the judges didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings by saying they sucked, even if they did. Randy, God bless him, was the only one with a real opinion, and he got shouted down every time by Steven and J-Lo. Now how are they going to learn how to compete with the best of the best if they don't get some criticism?
Also, is it not possible to please the venue owner who's paying the soundman AND the band? Please explain to me the logic behind "only the venue owner should be happy, and the band can go take a flying leap." The only thing venue owners care about is it not being too loud for drink orders. OK, some bands aren't happy unless the audience is puking up their spleen, but really, how hard is it to make the venue AND the band happy?
Personally, I think the no bashing soundmen rule is not a good one, with all respect to Josh. If you are a good soundman, then you have no reason to take it personally. But if you are a bad soundman, maybe you can learn a little something from the bashing and realize that maybe your repertoire needs broadened a bit and your skillset needs sharpening. That soundman rule totally disallows for that possibility.
It's just like "American Idol" now. I bailed halfway through this past season because it was obvious that the judges didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings by saying they sucked, even if they did. Randy, God bless him, was the only one with a real opinion, and he got shouted down every time by Steven and J-Lo. Now how are they going to learn how to compete with the best of the best if they don't get some criticism?
Also, is it not possible to please the venue owner who's paying the soundman AND the band? Please explain to me the logic behind "only the venue owner should be happy, and the band can go take a flying leap." The only thing venue owners care about is it not being too loud for drink orders. OK, some bands aren't happy unless the audience is puking up their spleen, but really, how hard is it to make the venue AND the band happy?
Speaking of strawman arguments...
Personally, I think the no bashing soundmen rule is not a good one, with all respect to Josh. If you are a good soundman, then you have no reason to take it personally. But if you are a bad soundman, maybe you can learn a little something from the bashing and realize that maybe your repertoire needs broadened a bit and your skillset needs sharpening. That soundman rule totally disallows for that possibility.
Also, is it not possible to please the venue owner who's paying the soundman AND the band? Please explain to me the logic behind "only the venue owner should be happy, and the band can go take a flying leap." The only thing venue owners care about is it not being too loud for drink orders. OK, some bands aren't happy unless the audience is puking up their spleen, but really, how hard is it to make the venue AND the band happy?
Jimmy, a lot of the issue is that a good 95% + of the folks on here are hobbyists (no problem there btw) and you just start to see too many whine and bash threads where it's just a lack of experience or a bad experience- usually folks don't post threads about their positive experiences (there have been a few). The negative outcome of this is a general bad attitude prevails toward the poor bastards who have to deal with 3 mixes a night 250 nights a year. Engineers pay has paralleled musicians pay, it's the same as it was 20 years ago. Tough to get a pro in this climate. The point is that bashing makes the problem worse, not better. And the guy you are trying to educate through a bash isn't on here.
There's audio forums that aren't run like tb (the vanilla moderation which is good for this forum it seems), so if you want to get into it and learn about that world you can always go start a bash thread on those forums, and good luck to you.
A forum full of negative commentary that promotes negative preconceptions isn't a good way to prep some of the 95% who are going to be in the 5% shortly.
Can a venue manager, sound engineer, and band be happy?
Usually. And no, it doesn't have to be hard.
But now we are getting to the grey area of venue type and musical type (cover band, bar vs. original band and showcase venue) and too often these are confused. That's a long discussion. No one told any bands to take a leap here.
OT, I work on occasion at a great venue that has an odd power issue with the building. No matter what, rf is an issue on all amps if run in line to the pa (due to ancient electrical). In this odd case, a di must be used to isolate the signal on anything run direct.
(Far from ideal , but this is the only venue I know of that feeds bands free dinner and pays 100 bucks minimum for original acts to play there nearly 365 days a year while struggling to keep doors open- so it's worth using a di or mic).
Usually not at all, and that's what I said. Most of the time it's a team effort and we all work together to make the gig go as well as possible for everyone concerned. I never said that the band can go take a flying leap. I would only take that position if a musician were to make an unreasonable demand and refuse to listen to why it was unreasonable. Or if he tried to intimidate me through verbal abuse or getting physical. In the former case I'll do what I think best without his input and in the latter I'll introduce him to Security.
Being a sound man used to be my livelihood; it's not any more but I still put my engineer's hat on from time to time. I get along famously with the acts I mix. They tell me how great I am, they buy me beers, they give me Tshirts and CD's. I must be doing something right.
Ah great wizards, yet another question possibly answered above but I am not sure...: Where does the direct box go in the great wiring scheme of things: My old acoustic 370 has a pair of speaker outs and monitor outs -- all 4 are controlled by the volume control of the amp -- the old book on the amp says so. I was told that the direct box is placed after my effects right before the bass plugs into the amp: bass->distortion box->tuner- digitechBP50->direct box -> Amp. Does this sound right?
Close - I'd put the tuner in front of the distortion pedal, then call it good...
- georgestrings
right, unless the amp's character was a big part of your sound, in which case the monitor out (which should be a line out of some sort) into the DI might be worth trying.
+1 to ggunn's point (which jimmym has actually echoed many times); most of the time, when you have a good soundguy and a good band, none of this happens.
the good soundguy is not scared of a particular signal chain preferred by the player, and the good player presents that soundguy with a signal chain that's perfectly usable out front.
+1 to ggunn's point (which jimmym has actually echoed many times); most of the time, when you have a good soundguy and a good band, none of this happens.
the good soundguy is not scared of a particular signal chain preferred by the player, and the good player presents that soundguy with a signal chain that's perfectly usable out front.
Yep.
I've had soundmen that didn't even say anything to me except to hand me a cable and say "This goes to your direct out," and the show sounded great. I've had them insist on miking the cab, put a DI after my sansamp, go sansamp direct, line direct etc, with varying degrees of success from great to "oh god", but the good ones can make ANYTHING work and the bad ones will make you sound like mud mixed with poop.
If the sound guy is doing a poor job, such as turning my snarly tone into a muddy mess, I will tell him. If he's arrogant and won't fix it, or incompetent and can't fix it, same difference: I'm screwed, and we sound bad.
Not going to sugarcoat it. But the good sound guys get all the love.
""And the guy you are trying to educate through a bash isn't on here. ""
I think that sums up all of the arguments against sound guys. The bad ones do not give a damn and the good ones come on here and talk about what they do.
I have my own Radial JDI on my pedal board which gives the sound man the sound of my bass or the blend pedal with distortion pedal. Everything placed before the amp - works for me and sound guys do not complain. I would love to get a mic on the cab to get more character and edge to my tone, along with a DI for the clean bass tone only. I roll off the low end heavily on my rig so miking my cab only would sound a bit thin and obnoxious. But asking for a second channel in most situations is usually denied.
I rarely get to hear what I sound like out front. As most sound checks are short and the bar owner wants us to shut up because people are already in the bar. Oh well
I think that sums up all of the arguments against sound guys. The bad ones do not give a damn and the good ones come on here and talk about what they do.
I have my own Radial JDI on my pedal board which gives the sound man the sound of my bass or the blend pedal with distortion pedal. Everything placed before the amp - works for me and sound guys do not complain. I would love to get a mic on the cab to get more character and edge to my tone, along with a DI for the clean bass tone only. I roll off the low end heavily on my rig so miking my cab only would sound a bit thin and obnoxious. But asking for a second channel in most situations is usually denied.
I rarely get to hear what I sound like out front. As most sound checks are short and the bar owner wants us to shut up because people are already in the bar. Oh well
Walter: I play through a vintage Acoustic 370, there are 2 speaker outs and 2 monitor outs, all designed to be controlled by the volume knob. I am not one to mess with volume or sound once the gig begins (except maybe for guitar parts). I have had 3 sound guys shrug when I told them about the monitor outputs, and went from the monitor out-> DB->board. I was told it sounded great through the mains. I have had several sound guys refuse to take the monitor out-DB, and have taken a direct box signal right before the amp. Fine. Only one guy said "his" direct box went into the chain first, right next to the bass. He wanted nothing to do with my effects/tuner. Since we are not disparaging sound guys, I will simply say I thought this was a little weird, but for back to back nites on the beach the guy made us sound great, so he may know something I don't. I would love to mic this amp My Jazz through the Acoustic and my 4-10 GK sounds great up and down; hell all my basses do. What mics would you recommend.
