A slightly different question on modes

[muljoe]

Alright TBers, I need some help. I’m having a hard time putting my mind around modes. I’m not looking for a debate on the difference between scales or modes. I am trying my hardest to subscribe to the modes=moods and that a mode isn’t just the same scale with a different starting point. So for this discussion, let’s assume that is the case.


Here’s a little background. I was told “learn the modes and scales” and eventually they will click. I know all my 2 octave scales and all my arpeggios up and down. I want to learn jazz really bad so I’ve been listening to, playing along, and digesting jazz a lot lately. I also bought the irealbook for my iPhone.

When I’m soloing over a jazz piece or even a simple ii V I progression I’m having a hard time practically applying modes. I can solo or walk using the arpeggios as references or anchors, but my question is can I solo using a single mode over the entire song to create the mood?, If so, then re solo the next pass using a different mode where it changes the “mood” of what I’m playing? I have been trying this over a ii V I and it just doesn’t seem to work if I play Dorian mode it obviously sounds great over the ii but it gets harder to use that mode on the V or the I and I find myself reverting to the Mixolydian or Ionian to make it sound good. If I just plow through it using the Dorian mode it just seems like I’m trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. I guess in my mind when thinking that modes=moods, I could solo over a piece using different modes to change the mood/sound of my solo for the duration of the song, regardless of the chord changes (as long as the section stays in the same key). Was this ignorant on my part or am I missing something? I might be trying to hit a nail with a screwdriver here…maybe modes cannot be applied the way I imagined them
Are there any videos that show the difference of each mode over the same piece (ie ii V I)…without a direct correlation to the chord? (ii=Dorian I=Ionian…etc) I just would really like some advice from the folks that claim that modes=moods.

 

[JesusMetalFunk]

Take a lesson from Anthony Wellington. He explains it all rather well with some exercises that work really well.

Me....I just do my best, and with some of the exercises they show up in my playing.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

I’m having a hard time practically applying modes.

Yes we all can make modes it is the application or how to use them that becomes hard.

I can solo or walk using the arpeggios as references or anchors, but my question is can I solo using a single mode over the entire song to create the mood?

Yes you can use one mode over the entire song IF you are playing over a modal vamp. If you are playing over a chord progression you end up hearing what you describe in the follow paragraph.

, If so, then re solo the next pass using a different mode where it changes the “mood” of what I’m playing? I have been trying this over a ii V I and it just doesn't seem to work if I play Dorian mode it obviously sounds great over the ii but it gets harder to use that mode on the V or the I and I find myself reverting to the Mixolydian or Ionian to make it sound good. If I just plow through it using the Dorian mode it just seems like I’m trying to pound a square peg into a round hole.

Again vamp instead of chord progression. Dorian does sound different than Mixolydian. First Dorian is minor and Mix is major, both sound good together over a one note pedal point - drone your low E and play both E Dorian and then E Mixolydian over that droning E. I bet you can hear the difference now that you are droning. The chords under your mode have a great deal to do with what mood you will hear. Most of the time if you are playing over a chord progression - no matter what you do - the tonal center of the chord progression is what is heard.

Are there any videos that show the difference of each mode over the same piece (ie ii V I)…without a direct correlation to the chord? (ii=Dorian I=Ionian…etc) I just would really like some advice from the folks that claim that modes=moods.

Check out Scott Devine's video lessons on modes. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] You may have to click the blank screen several times for the video to load. Scott will start with relative modes - same notes but different keys. Then move to paralell modes where the key stays the same and the notes change. He will drone an E note and play every mode over that pedal point. It's here you hear the mode's mood.

Something on modal vamps. http://www.riddleworks.com/modalharm3.html

Mode's mood. Understand the mood I hear may not be the mood you hear. With that in mind.....

• Ionian is the major scale it's mode is up beat. If you want an up beat sound just use the major scale.
• Aeolian is the natural minor scale it's mode is said to be sad. I do not hear sadness, I hear minor.... minor what, I don't know just minor.
• Lydian is said to have a daydream mood. Lydian is so much like the major scale - just the #4 difference I seldom use it -- using the major scale instead.
• Mixolydian is said to have a Latin sound, I hear Mexican, it's b7 is the only difference between it and the major scale. Now play Mix over a Blues all dominant seven chord progression and it now does not sound Mexician - those dominant seven chords changed the mood.
• Phrygian is said to have an exotic minor sound, and yes here I hear a Middle Eastern minor sound.
• Dorian is said to have an attractive minor sound. Yes, it is my minor mode choice. Now what name to put on it's sound, your guess is as good as mine.
• Locrian is said to have a dark and tense mood. And I do hear a dark and tense mood with Locrian. I have found that a m7b5 chord vamp - just the one chord - works well with Locrian.

So pick the mood you want and then make the modal vamp that will work with that mood. As far as playing Dorian over the minor chords in a chord progression and then going with Mixolydian over the major chords in the progression - good luck with that.

Pentatonic scales and or chord tones seem to work best for me, I seldom use modes, as most of the time I'm playing over a progression. And in public the lead electric and or pedal steel take the lead solo breaks in our band which gives me no reason to be using modes. My experience with modes is playing them at home over backing tracks.

I'm sure you will get a lot of activity on this string.

 

[Phil Smith]

Rhythm and dynamics, do more to transmit mood than anything else, which is why drums or a single drum can establish a mood.

When you think about soloing it may sound better if you're thinking/hearing melody and not modes.

 

[mambo4]

I learned my modes and scales, and for me the moment they 'clicked' was when i realized that, when playing over chord changes , modes are over-thinking the problem. Thinking in terms of chord tones, passing tones, and chromatic notes, and letting the melody and your ear guide you is10x more efficient to get to the same musical place.

The great Jazz players did not 'think' in modes or scales when soloing over changes to popular standards. They thought in chord tones. Carol Kaye and Dizzy keyboardist Hal Galper speak to this.

I play modes only because my thinking leads me to end up playing notes that technically fall into a mode,
but never by deliberate thinking.

 

[gre107]

The modes are just the alphabet. What you do with them is what will make the music.
If you're playing with a ii-V-I in a specific key play around the different modes in that key.
For example (in Cmaj) play the D Dorian and lead into the E Phrygian or A Aeolian or whatever you care to do. Get used to being able to see the entire fretboard laid out in that specific key. After a while you will start finding these nice little melodic snipets that you will want to remember. You can change the mode for each chord or you can play through one for all of them when the harmony is diatonic.
Sing what you want to play and this will help with developing melodic phrasing and using the modes. Then you will start playing what you hear using arpeggios, modes, pentatonics etc...
The modes come in real handy but combining your knowledge of them with other scales arpeggios etc... while singing will really pull it all together.

And Yes! Go see Anthony Wellington! He will save you tons of time on how to use them!

 

[miltslackford]

Personally, I think modes slow down people from being able to play jazz rather than help them.

If you want some free advice from somebody who learned the hard way, ditch the modes, think about chord tones and keys. If you have chromatic chords they will make chromatic alterations to the major or minor key you're in, so observe them.

In doing so you'll come up with weird scales like if you add a C sharp to the Aeolian mode (A-A) in the key of C, you'll make the Mixolydian b6, the fifth mode of the melodic minor. This scale would be suitable if you're in the key of C and there's an A7 chord. But it's simpler to think 'the A7 just put a Csharp but I'm still in C major' than it is to think 'Oh, here's my opportunity to use the mixolydian b6 for a bar'.

The page of chords vs scales/modes in all the Aebersold books should be torn out and burned because it makes no sense.

 

[miltslackford]

I just would really like some advice from the folks that claim that modes=moods.

To me this is where part of the problem lies.

The idea that a mode has a mood is one thing.

But you have to stay in that mode for a long time. When modes really became famous was with modal jazz. The point of this music was that up til that point, jazz had been all about changes, so players were so busy figuring out how to play over the complex changes they couldn't really stay with one scale for very long.

So modal jazz was about saying, we are going to keep the same scale available for much longer, or have a set of changes that allow people to use one scale only, and we'll explore what we can do with melody when we don't have to continually dart round corners. So people could then say 'the phrygian sounds like x' because they played it for a while.

Now what's happened since then is people have started teaching things backwards. They start off talking about modes for people who are learning to play over changes which aren't for modal jazz. So if you have an opportunity to play a particular mode for a single bar or half a bar it makes absolutely no sense to talk about the 'mood' of that mode.

For playing over changes, I would recommend learning how to identify the key centres in a piece and get really really good at major and minor ii Vs. Look at chord tones and keys rather than scales. Look at how chromatic chords in a key centre introduce accidentals which you need to observe.

You will find people who have very isolated examples which work for them about how to play over a particular set of changes using a particular mode on a certain chord. This is really different to using modes as your main way of approaching changes. These are more like 'tricks' than what you could call a system. Start with the arpeggios, the chord tones and you'll get to where you want to go faster.

I think if you want to explore the 'mood' of a mode you really need to be playing some music that allows you to stay in that mode for a long time, so it needs to be modal music. If you want to explore this, get a drone and play the mode over the top. But I wouldn't try and solve your approach to note choice over harmony with modes.

 

[Groove Master]

When I’m soloing over a jazz piece or even a simple ii V I progression I’m having a hard time practically applying modes. I can solo or walk using the arpeggios as references or anchors, but my question is can I solo using a single mode over the entire song to create the mood?, If so, then re solo the next pass using a different mode where it changes the “mood” of what I’m playing? I have been trying this over a ii V I and it just doesn’t seem to work if I play Dorian mode it obviously sounds great over the ii but it gets harder to use that mode on the V or the I and I find myself reverting to the Mixolydian or Ionian to make it sound good. If I just plow through it using the Dorian mode it just seems like I’m trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. I guess in my mind when thinking that modes=moods, I could solo over a piece using different modes to change the mood/sound of my solo for the duration of the song, regardless of the chord changes (as long as the section stays in the same key). Was this ignorant on my part or am I missing something? I might be trying to hit a nail with a screwdriver here…maybe modes cannot be applied the way I imagined them

I don't think it is a good way to use modes for a specific mood over a ii-v-i for example but, I like to play the basic IONIAN scale over a diatonic chord progression like the ii-v-i. To get away from the tonal sound of the major scale, it is possible to play the related scales like the iii and the vi modes because they are interchangeable in the harmonic system.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

To me this is where part of the problem lies.

The idea that a mode has a mood is one thing.

But you have to stay in that mode for a long time. When modes really became famous was with modal jazz. The point of this music was that up til that point, jazz had been all about changes, so players were so busy figuring out how to play over the complex changes they couldn't really stay with one scale for very long.

So modal jazz was about saying, we are going to keep the same scale available for much longer, or have a set of changes that allow people to use one scale only, and we'll explore what we can do with melody when we don't have to continually dart round corners. So people could then say 'the phrygian sounds like x' because they played it for a while.

Now what's happened since then is people have started teaching things backwards. They start off talking about modes for people who are learning to play over changes which aren't for modal jazz. So if you have an opportunity to play a particular mode for a single bar or half a bar it makes absolutely no sense to talk about the 'mood' of that mode.

For playing over changes, I would recommend learning how to identify the key centres in a piece and get really really good at major and minor ii Vs. Look at chord tones and keys rather than scales. Look at how chromatic chords in a key centre introduce accidentals which you need to observe.

You will find people who have very isolated examples which work for them about how to play over a particular set of changes using a particular mode on a certain chord. This is really different to using modes as your main way of approaching changes. These are more like 'tricks' than what you could call a system. Start with the arpeggios, the chord tones and you'll get to where you want to go faster.

I think if you want to explore the 'mood' of a mode you really need to be playing some music that allows you to stay in that mode for a long time, so it needs to be modal music. If you want to explore this, get a drone and play the mode over the top. But I wouldn't try and solve your approach to note choice over harmony with modes.

That explains a lot. + 1,000. There is modal and then there is tonal, to achieve modal you need a droning vamp so the modal mood, sound - whatever you want to call it - has time to develop.

Well said.

 

[FretlessMainly]

Yes indeed. I would also point out that it seems very likely to me that a good 95% of people who ask about modes here on TB never actually play modal music. For some reason, it seems in vogue to tell people to learn modes and it's not something that most musicians need to know. Sure the minor mode is a mode, so there are aspects of modality that are common to basic music, but a thorough understanding of even the church modes isn't necessarily what most bassists need to know.

 

[bigboy_78]

To me this is where part of the problem lies.

The idea that a mode has a mood is one thing.

But you have to stay in that mode for a long time. When modes really became famous was with modal jazz. The point of this music was that up til that point, jazz had been all about changes, so players were so busy figuring out how to play over the complex changes they couldn't really stay with one scale for very long.

So modal jazz was about saying, we are going to keep the same scale available for much longer, or have a set of changes that allow people to use one scale only, and we'll explore what we can do with melody when we don't have to continually dart round corners. So people could then say 'the phrygian sounds like x' because they played it for a while.

Now what's happened since then is people have started teaching things backwards. They start off talking about modes for people who are learning to play over changes which aren't for modal jazz. So if you have an opportunity to play a particular mode for a single bar or half a bar it makes absolutely no sense to talk about the 'mood' of that mode.

For playing over changes, I would recommend learning how to identify the key centres in a piece and get really really good at major and minor ii Vs. Look at chord tones and keys rather than scales. Look at how chromatic chords in a key centre introduce accidentals which you need to observe.

You will find people who have very isolated examples which work for them about how to play over a particular set of changes using a particular mode on a certain chord. This is really different to using modes as your main way of approaching changes. These are more like 'tricks' than what you could call a system. Start with the arpeggios, the chord tones and you'll get to where you want to go faster.

I think if you want to explore the 'mood' of a mode you really need to be playing some music that allows you to stay in that mode for a long time, so it needs to be modal music. If you want to explore this, get a drone and play the mode over the top. But I wouldn't try and solve your approach to note choice over harmony with modes.

One of the best comments on this topic I have read.

as far as a ii V I goes.

You could play D Dorian, G mixo, C Ionian (in Cmaj of course), but you'd be using the same 8 notes each time, so that way of thinking becomes a bit redundant.

 

[muljoe]

Thanks everybody for your time and responses, I think I was trying to over apply them in music that is not written to be modal. That was my big error.

For jazz, I'm having a lot of luck with chord tones with chromatic fills inbetween chord tones. I guess I'll just keep woodshedding those and put modes on a shelf until I start to work with modal tunes.

Thanks again for the replies!

 

[Basshoofd]

Also check out Carol Kaye's teaching. She very much dislikes scales and focuses on chords instead. She has study material for sale which is all very good (though I think the presentation could be a lot better). Her playing tips are full of info and she has a forum that has lot's of good stuff too.

http://carolkaye.com/www/education/tips101.htm

 

[mambo4]

For jazz, I'm having a lot of luck with chord tones with chromatic fills inbetween chord tones. I guess I'll just keep woodshedding those and put modes

the other important chordal approach that jazz greats incorporated into their solos was experimenting with superimposed triads. For example when the chord was a G7 they'd try out various triad arpeggios -both in and out of the key - on top of that,
to see how they sounded.

Instead of "scale X works over chord Y," it was "these triads sound cool over chord Y."
and of course they'd add the chromatic/passing tones related to these triads as well.
Over time these became those odd extended and altered Jazz chords.
No rules other than the ear/good voice leading.

( eventually the academics reverse engineered this and came up "chord X= mode Y" formulas. at least that's my theory.)

here's an old thread I started about superimposed triads

 

[Sloop John D]

I have been trying this over a ii V I and it just doesn’t seem to work if I play Dorian mode it obviously sounds great over the ii but it gets harder to use that mode on the V or the I and I find myself reverting to the Mixolydian or Ionian to make it sound good.

I think this is where you're going wrong. Modes aren't so much about the chord being played as they are about the tonal center of the song. You don't play the same mode over each chord to place the song within a mode. For example, in the key of Dminor Dorian, you wouldn't play a D Dorian over the D Minor(ii), and then a G Dorian over the G(V), followed by a C Dorian over the C major(I). That's not how it works.

The song gets its modal tone from the structure of the song, which will place one of the chords at the tonal center. Most songs will likely be in Ionian Mode, with the I chord at the tonal center, or in the Aeolian Mode, with the vi chord at the tonal center. This has to do with the simplicity of making cadences that resolve to these chords, with IV V resolving to the I, and ii III resolving to the vi.

However, sometimes songs will have other chords at the tonal center, and these songs could be considered "modal" as they would have one of the less common modes at the tonal center.

A good example of a song in Dorian mode is "And I Love Her" by the Beatles. Although the song is in the key of E major, a majority of the song is built around the F#minor chord (the ii chord of the scale), which gives the song a very Dorian sound.

In that example, the bass player wouldn't want to play a Dorian scale over every single chord. He would just want to play in the key of E major, making sure to highlight each chord by using the appropriate chord tones and possibly emphasizing the Bb/A# note, which is what is giving the song its Dorian feel. It's not up to the musicians to determine the mode of the song. The song's structure will already have determined the mode. All you really need to do is play along.


For the individuals who said learning modes is not as helpful as learning chord tones, I strongly disagree. The way I learned chord tones was through the modes. Ionian mode gives you all the potential chord tones to play over the I chord, Dorian mode gives you all the potential chord tones to play over the ii chord, and so on. By learning the modes, you aren't limited to the 1st, 3rd, and 5th of the chord. You can easily add the 7th, and you know exactly which 7th to add. The same applies to 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, etc. For me, a mode is just teaching you the chord tones for any particular chord.

 

[Reflective]

The best thing ive gained from learning modes so far, is the muscle memory of different hand positions and fretboard patterns. It allows me to play more comfortably at any position, instead of being stuck using the basic scale forms anchored on the root.

 

[WallBass]

For a ii-v-i you could just solo over the relative minor (aeolian) the whole time

 

[Don41_2]

Posts #3 & #8 really helped me get a better grasp of this issue. I've been struggling with how to use the mode stuff for a while.

The point about modal jazz hanging onto a specific mode long enough for the "feel" to emerge was the key.

Thank you.