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About soloing
- Thread starter Jogobass
- Start date
Walking! Become thoroughly proficient in walking bass lines and then soloing should become second nature.
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,736
- 8,941
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Yes, you can play a solo by simply walking through the changes, but that's not really telling a story. Walking can help with scales and intervals - the technical aspects of soloing - but what's more valuable in "telling a story" is melody. The melody of a piece is the foundation for improvisation, so if you can play the melody, technique and imagination yield a solo.
There are a million threads, methods, suggestions on how to do this, once you start to Google it. Problem is that there is so much information, is is hard to go through it all and find out what works. But one common thread (IMHO) is the one that talks to playing what you hear. Start out by singing a phrase you like, ideally a short, 4/8 notes burst. Become familiar with it, so that you can play at any rhythm, speed, across or down the neck, before, after or in the middle of a bar. That's the first chapter. Then SLOWLY add additional notes. However, do not let this become pattern practice. In other words, vary the phrase as much as you can, using the same basic notes. Remember to hear the pattern before you play it. This will be the first chapter. Then SLOWLY add an extra 1/2 (or more notes, depending on what you are confortable with) but again, don't use as a repeated pattern, but rather as the building chapters of your story. Start out with a simple F blues, if you like. Then use the learning to move to slightly more complex chords / music pieces. The idea here is that in time you will have learned enough words (=notes) to put them in a way that you want (and make musical sense).
Good luck!
Good luck!
There are exercises to develop improvisational techniques, like scales and arpeggios. But melodies aren’t made of scales or arpeggios. Melodies are made of intervals. I think we are working on the wrong things to develop melodies. I think we should work on trying to develop a melodic sensibility.
Spend time listening to good melodies. Listen to some singers; listen to some alto sax players. Listen to Cole Porter. And then play through some of those melodies on your bass.
Spend time listening to good melodies. Listen to some singers; listen to some alto sax players. Listen to Cole Porter. And then play through some of those melodies on your bass.
I think of it as a vocabulary issue
learn to play phrases you like
figure out what chord progression the phrases go with*
figure out how to transpose the phrase to other key centers*
learn to recognize that chord progression in any key*
add it to your vocabulary
repeat and build a huge vocabulary
*you need enough theory to understand chord progressions
learn to play phrases you like
figure out what chord progression the phrases go with*
figure out how to transpose the phrase to other key centers*
learn to recognize that chord progression in any key*
add it to your vocabulary
repeat and build a huge vocabulary
*you need enough theory to understand chord progressions
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Takes Melody, Harmony, Lyrics and Rhythm working together to accomplish what you ask about.
The lyrics tell the story, the chord progression move the story along. So call up some fake chord sheet music on the song, follow the chords and base your bass line upon the active chord's notes.
Someone is going to have to sing the lyrics for the story to be told. While the lyrics are being sung you will need the chord progression to move the lyrics (story) along. Follow the chords and play notes of the active chord while the lyrics are being sung.
You can do all of that yourself, or split it up between several members of the band. The drummer and the bassists are not required to also sing, in a lot of the bands I played with... in fact they joked about paying me more if I would not sing
.Call up some fake chord on Hotel California -- see how the lyrics tell the story and provide the melody. And the harmony and rhythm supply the rest of what the SONG needs.
Happy trails.
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- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,736
- 8,941
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
What's the opening phrase of the melody to THE BEST THING FOR YOU? or I LOVES YOU, PORGY?
@Jogobass - how much and what kind of ear training do you do? An improvised solo in the jazz idiom is, at its base, YOUR internal response to your immediate aural environment. SO you need to be able to HEAR that, and hear it with enough CLARITY that you could sing the pitches and have worked through exercises of scales and arpeggios that you know WHERE those pitches are on your instrument. And that all starts with actually being able to HEAR that the opening phrase of THE BEST THING FOR YOU (in C major) is a B7 arpeggio in root position. If you can't hear these things, it's going to be difficult in the extreme to hear the line in your imagination with enough clarity to get it out into the air with your instrument.
Thanks for the replies everyone. My background is a jazz education which I didn't finish due to mental issues. I took about a 15 year break from music because playing brought back bad memories. I do listen to a lot of fusion, Gary Willis, Victor Wooten being my favorite 2 examples. I also like Jimmy Johnson's work with Alan Holdsworth. When I was at the jazz education my ears were apparently developed enough to do the tests required to proceed the year, but I was never really proficient and had a feeling that I was guessing and getting lucky. I think I can tell the difference between major and minor but when I figure out a new melody by ear I still have to go note to note on the instrument and figure out what these notes are in the harmony.
I am aware that lyrics of course tell a story, but I'm referring to getting a solo sound like a story. One example of what I think is an amazing solo that tells a story is the bass solo in Self Defense by Tribal Tech.
This goes through motions that fit the song. I like the build up and it is very melodic i nature. Technically I can copy most of it, but what I want eventually is to be able to actually improvise my own notes on that kind of level.
With the mental issues out of the way now, I'm having a new outlook on bass playing. Just ordered a new Ibanez GWB205 because I could and it really has the fretless sound I'm looking for. Not just Gary Willis sounds amazing on it. I've seen many videos of other bassplayers who get a decent sound out of this particular instrument. The instrument has a very typical growl that I can't find in other fretless basses. For example, the F-bass that Alain Caron plays is just not the kind of fretless sound I want.
So, I got the sound, technique is not an issue as it will come back to me while playing. Just need to start playing again from scratch basically with a whole lot of ideas and phrases already popping up in my head, but without much indication what notes they are.
From what I remember when I did study jazz, is that when I soloed I would stick to the chord tones and try to keep a decent rhythm while trying to play notes that were not obviously sounding like I was playing walking bass in the upper registers. But there was much uncertainty. At the time there was really not much room to develop my playing much beyond that as the education had a broad curriculum including learning to play jazz on the piano, arranging lessons and didactic lessons to prepare to become a teacher. Also at the time I wasn't able to focus much on playing every our of the day, which was a requirement to be able to finish that education. This foreshadowed the total mental derangement I experienced quite soon afterwards.
But l'm doing better now and I plan to pick it up where I left it and improve on that.
To get an impression of where I was at when I quit playing. The link below leads to a showcase of a fusion album called 'The Cross' that I recorded with a guitar player and drummer. This was right before my mental crash. I recorded the album and then they continued with another bass player. There is a solo in it somewhere which is about as much as I could solo back then.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
I am aware that lyrics of course tell a story, but I'm referring to getting a solo sound like a story. One example of what I think is an amazing solo that tells a story is the bass solo in Self Defense by Tribal Tech.
This goes through motions that fit the song. I like the build up and it is very melodic i nature. Technically I can copy most of it, but what I want eventually is to be able to actually improvise my own notes on that kind of level.
With the mental issues out of the way now, I'm having a new outlook on bass playing. Just ordered a new Ibanez GWB205 because I could and it really has the fretless sound I'm looking for. Not just Gary Willis sounds amazing on it. I've seen many videos of other bassplayers who get a decent sound out of this particular instrument. The instrument has a very typical growl that I can't find in other fretless basses. For example, the F-bass that Alain Caron plays is just not the kind of fretless sound I want.
So, I got the sound, technique is not an issue as it will come back to me while playing. Just need to start playing again from scratch basically with a whole lot of ideas and phrases already popping up in my head, but without much indication what notes they are.
From what I remember when I did study jazz, is that when I soloed I would stick to the chord tones and try to keep a decent rhythm while trying to play notes that were not obviously sounding like I was playing walking bass in the upper registers. But there was much uncertainty. At the time there was really not much room to develop my playing much beyond that as the education had a broad curriculum including learning to play jazz on the piano, arranging lessons and didactic lessons to prepare to become a teacher. Also at the time I wasn't able to focus much on playing every our of the day, which was a requirement to be able to finish that education. This foreshadowed the total mental derangement I experienced quite soon afterwards.
But l'm doing better now and I plan to pick it up where I left it and improve on that.
To get an impression of where I was at when I quit playing. The link below leads to a showcase of a fusion album called 'The Cross' that I recorded with a guitar player and drummer. This was right before my mental crash. I recorded the album and then they continued with another bass player. There is a solo in it somewhere which is about as much as I could solo back then.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
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I like the album you played on. Sounds better and more coherent than most of the new stuff being released. It has a deep Alan Holdsworth vibe. So it's obvious you can play. I think you should just take it easy on yourself and not worry too much about sounding like Gary Willis or whoever. Just sound like yourself and continue to explore the music. Music is great, but I've come to the realization that it's really not that big a deal.
Tens of thousands of people can solo. Maybe hundreds of thousands. But who really cares? Does it matter that much? Can everyone give a speech like Martin Luther King or Winston Churchill? Nope. Does anyone care? Nope. People just go on with their regular old conversations and that's that. I used to agonize over playing super solos, but it's just not that important. I can count the number of truly moving bass solos I've heard on one hand, and they were played by icons of the instrument.
So I play the gig, play some solos and enjoy the moments with my band mates.
Just have some fun.
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Thanks for liking the album. Yeah, it's going to be all about fun for me from now on. I've found a way to support myself without needing gigs to pay for my rent, and so music is a true hobby again for me. That leaves me room to do whatever I like. I'm just very much in love with the fretless and what it can do in the hands of the great. It's not about becoming a copy of them, but they do inspire me, both in tone and choice of notes. We all stand on the backs of giants, as the saying goes.
Being inspired is the best we can hope for. Then we do the work and whatever happens, happens. I'm glad music is just a hobby for me, because as you said, you get to do what you want.
Besides, there's so much music available, instantly that it becomes a mass of overwhelming information. I liked it better when the great artists such as Bill Evans would take a year or even two in between albums, because they felt he didn't have anything new to say. Now everyone thinks they have something to say, almost constantly.
But that's almost never true.
I think you stipulated my major issue. My hearing is okay, but not developed enough. I feel there is a disconnect between the theory I know and my ears ability to hear. I mean I can tell when someone plays the wrong notes. I can listen to Allan Holdsworth soloing and although I don't know what he's playing I can hear that it fits the chords, even though he plays very unusual scales, many of which he made up himself. But when I play I'm very much locked into the chords, scales and the corresponding patterns on the fingerboard. I play notes because I know they will fit the music, not because they are the notes that I have in my head.
I've also ran into the problem where I become super critical of myself. Like the fusion album I posted earlier.. I recorded that and I had very mixed feelings about it. Much of it was at the top of my ability at the time. I just heard every little mistake I made. I couldn't believe the reviews when they spoke highly of my playing and never mentioned anything wrong with it. I listened to the album again recently, after not having heard it for 15 years, and I couldn't believe my ears! I actually like what was recorded and didn't even recognize myself for a while. Sure, there were mistakes, but overall it was good music.
I remember a jazz concert I played with a band, and they wanted me to do a solo as well, so while I was playing I had this idea from Michael Manring in my head and I played a few notes like him, which sounded great. But then I lost track and starting resorting to what I knew, which was walking bass. My bass teacher at the time noticed and said: if you're gonna study an existing solo make sure you study the whole thing. But that wasn't my purpose. I wanted to quote a phrase and see how it inspired me at the moment. I feel there was a bit of a disconnect between our teachers and me at the time. I think it was expected that they teach us how to learn so that we can become independent musicians who can evolve themselves over time. It's not the kind of hand holding that I had when I had lessons before starting this jazz education. Same goes for ear training. They explain the methods, but then you're on your own to learn it.
I realized too late that most of the learning had to come from myself. Nowadays I understand this so I do plan to do some more studying. Perhaps I'll play with some other people but I really need to get back to making those daily hours just by myself with my bass and the Real Fake book or similar.
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The album sounds good. Obviously, great soloing is not a requirement for being a good bassist. But connecting your ear to your hands is important. Singing with your playing can help with phrasing and should help your ears develop. Ear training is good. Also, pick a classic solo by a non-bassist (Miles? Cannonball Adderly?), transcribe it, and analyze what makes it great. Not just melodically and harmonically, but the way ideas are developed. A good jazz-based teacher might be great for you.
I think there's a big difference between being mentally able to play a solo, and being able to play it easily. Practicing makes the difference. Use playalongs to train your ears, so you learn to hear what you thought up. Aebersold recordings come to mind.
Play a simple concept (eg. Create gradation with only two notes). Play it many times till it becomes natural and 'solved' for you. Then add anything new. If you come short in inspiration, browse the web.
Even the best masters play a bad solo sometimes. Don't worry; just lay brick after brick.
Play a simple concept (eg. Create gradation with only two notes). Play it many times till it becomes natural and 'solved' for you. Then add anything new. If you come short in inspiration, browse the web.
Even the best masters play a bad solo sometimes. Don't worry; just lay brick after brick.
Sing while you play. Then your hands will start to follow your heart and speak from it. I'm about to listen to my solo from last night's show; I think I busted out on this tune.
Play your pentatonic scale like each note is a drum and jam out.
I know there are more technical approaches to soloing; but I am lazy and want to add in theory knowledge as I acquire it or as I find comfort in applying what I know to what I'm already doing. The audience will appreciate energy and heart.
Listen to music where the musicians are doing that in an accessible way - we can't all be Victor Wooten out of the gate. I listen to a lot of soul and Motown where the music has some simple elements, but each musician speaks with a story and with real emotion.
Play your pentatonic scale like each note is a drum and jam out.
I know there are more technical approaches to soloing; but I am lazy and want to add in theory knowledge as I acquire it or as I find comfort in applying what I know to what I'm already doing. The audience will appreciate energy and heart.
Listen to music where the musicians are doing that in an accessible way - we can't all be Victor Wooten out of the gate. I listen to a lot of soul and Motown where the music has some simple elements, but each musician speaks with a story and with real emotion.
Ha ok my solo just played on my stereo and I would add that an octave pedal + an envelope filter definitely helps with the "speaking" vibe. Halfway through this original: 9 09 K.I.D.S - 11:32
I'm not a very advanced bassist in terms of chops. Just pentatonic scales and a few tritones (sharp IV) in the melody lines...
I'm not a very advanced bassist in terms of chops. Just pentatonic scales and a few tritones (sharp IV) in the melody lines...
@Standalone That's a cool solo. Really compliments the sound of the keyboard player. Like, he's saying one thing, and you say another thing with a similar sound. Which is another thing, call and response. Used to do that a lot with jazz combo's. One soloist plays a few bars, then another plays a few bars. Trying to answer each other's ideas. Can't wait to get my new bass delivered and sit in on some jam sessions.
Thanks so much! Ed Murnane just jumped into the band this Spring and has taken the quality of how we support the songs to a whole other level. He's got those jazz chops, and I did a long stint in a jazz standards / bossa nova outfit. I'm not a super legit jazz guy for sure, but that's definitely a part of what I try to bring in -- I'm psyched that you heard what we do and put words to it.
Thanks for listening. And I think you make a key point in this thread -- respond to the other players in a conversation and you're really there -- speaking is truly about *listening*
