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Adept sight readers and/or teachers: position shifting questions

tonemachine

Inactive
Mar 23, 2010
862
624
Chicagoland
I'm a long-time player who started taking lessons a few months ago. To put things in perspective, when I first played (electric) for my teacher who has a Master's in bass performance and who plays electric, and DB in symphonies, he said "what do you want ME to teach you?" Believe me, he's since found a bunch but he says I'm a solid, functional bass player. My sight reading is weak when I have to shift over the 5th fret, my intuitive ear to fingerboard skills are weak but all being worked on.

I can sight read quite well from nut to fifth fret. I learned to read very well on clarinet where one's hands and fingers stay in one position... On bass, I have little trouble even reading up many ledger lines (reading, but not executing). The weak spot is choosing when and to which position to shift. My ability to read and execute to the fifth fret came without much work when I first picked up bass 25 years ago so I have no insight into how my brain reads stuff and then puts my fingers to work.

Among other things, we are working through the Patitucci Etudes. I mean, digging in for hours (not at one sitting) butI'm not sure that intuitive shifting is setting in as much as I'm just memorizing the etudes. For instance, if I then go to sight read some Abersold playalongs, I'm stuck as soon as I have to shift. I have to stop and figure out the shifts. I was hoping that a teacher would write some exact fingerings and position shifts for me to "memorize" but he won't have it, and he says I'll thank him later (and he's not being lazy). He did give me fingerings for two octave scales so that helped a lot. I've also noted that the Berklee Chord Studies for Bass gives fingerings only in Chapter 1 and the forward says/implies it's best to find your own way and that there are many ways to play the same thing so the student should find many ways. I get it....but:

How does it become intuitive? Please go back in time to when you didnt just intuitively "know" or "hear" what is right. What should I be paying attention to when working on shifting in order to facilitate it's becoming second nature? My teacher tells me to always shift to a position that easily gives me a group of notes but I have trouble seeing "the word" that a group of notes writes so I'm wondering if I'm overlooking something. Any insight is much appreciated!
 
For me it was two octave scales and working on arpeggios of triads and 4 part chords in closed and open position. You quickly start getting an idea of when and where to shift based on where you're heading and what works with your physiognomy. Saying the notes names before/when you play them is a good idea for learning to connect your understanding of the scale or chord, what it sounds like (expectation of pitch) and where it lives on the fingerboard.

I've outlined the exercises in a couple of places around the site....
 
For me it was two octave scales and working on arpeggios of triads and 4 part chords in closed and open position. You quickly start getting an idea of when and where to shift based on where you're heading and what works with your physiognomy. Saying the notes names before/when you play them is a good idea for learning to connect your understanding of the scale or chord, what it sounds like (expectation of pitch) and where it lives on the fingerboard.

I've outlined the exercises in a couple of places around the site....

Thanks, Ed. I'll look around.
 
The way that I learned fingering was by playing two octave scales in as many ways as I could think to play them, then bringing them in to my bass teacher and having him tell me that I didn't think of ALL the ways, and then he would show me a bunch more. It was an exhaustive process, but by the end of it, I never have to think about fingerings and position shifts, they just come naturally to me.

There have been about a billion different "systems" for fingerings, but in the end, there are enough exceptions to the rules that it almost isn't worth it.

Also, you should go through the fingerings with your teacher passage by passage. This is how I work with my students, and I'm a real d*** at first about insisting that they think every note through and play it the same way every time. Make sure he's doing that too, because otherwise you can get lazy.
 
When I'm sight reading and doing my initial cursory scan for key changes, repeats, signs/codas, etc, I'll also scan above the stave to identify where I might need to shift positions. When I'm playing through the piece, that gives me advance warning that I need to start thinking about a shift. When it doesn't work out, I'll simply transpose an octave down. :atoz:
 
For me it was two octave scales and working on arpeggios of triads and 4 part chords in closed and open position. You quickly start getting an idea of when and where to shift based on where you're heading and what works with your physiognomy. Saying the notes names before/when you play them is a good idea for learning to connect your understanding of the scale or chord, what it sounds like (expectation of pitch) and where it lives on the fingerboard.

I've outlined the exercises in a couple of places around the site....

The first post of yours that I found says to work on all the stuff in all 12 keys. That is a consistently repeated thing and I believe it but does it mean all 12 keys in one day. I happen to try to start each practice session with 15 or 20 minutes of scales/arps (or whenever my mind has shut down and starts to want to play a song) but only in a couple of keys so far as i dont feel i know any of them well enough to move on to others.. Would I be better off playing several keys (or all keys) a little bit everytime rather than focusing on just one for however many days/weeks until I feel I know it adequately?
 
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When I'm sight reading and doing my initial cursory scan for key changes, repeats, signs/codas, etc, I'll also scan above the stave to identify where I might need to shift positions. When I'm playing through the piece, that gives me advance warning that I need to start thinking about a shift. When it doesn't work out, I'll simply transpose an octave down. :atoz:

I can't believe that I've never thought of that. I overlooked the obvious when focusing on the difficult. Shifting wouldn't be so bad if i had an idea ahead of time. I have been into the "pick up a sheet of music and don't stop for mistakes" school, not thinking that it doesn't preclude a preview for big shifts.
 
Probably not the most popular approach, but I find pieces that are difficult for me to sightread, and I play them very, very slow. It annoys the crap out of me, and by being annoyed, I find my laziness of wanting to just easily play something fades away, and I turn into a slightly different animal. If you get the piece memorized, you will need to find another one. NO CHEATING.


edited to add: I am hardly "adept." :)
 
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The first post of yours that I found says to work on all the stuff in all 12 keys. That is a consistently repeated thing and I believe it but does it mean all 12 keys in one day. I happen to try to start each practice session with 15 or 20 minutes of scales/arps (or whenever my mind has shut down and starts to want to play a song) but only in a couple of keys so far as i dont feel i know any of them well enough to move on to others.. Would I be better off playing several keys (or all keys) a little bit everytime rather than focusing on just one for however many days/weeks until I feel I know it adequately?

Nevermind, Ed. I found another post of yours explaining to go through them all, including the different chord types from each root. I'm going to have to up my scale/arpeggio time!
 
I have trouble seeing "the word" that a group of notes writes so I'm wondering if I'm overlooking something.

One of the tricks (sic) to sight-reading is how much info you can grok by looking ahead -- e.g., most players will tell you they don't read individual notes but rather figures or phrases...the "words" that you refer to. You can apply this same look-ahead approach to position shifts: Scan a phrase & make note of its register maximum & minimum so that you immediately know whether you'll need to execute a position shift. Then worry about figuring out where it makes the most sense to execute that shift. Get used to recognizing the shape of a line in terms of its "elevation gain" (to borrow a phrase from topography). Phrases that gently ascend or descend, even if it's to some registral extreme many leger lines off the staff, may offer a lot of different places where a smooth position shift can be executed; conversely, if you see one or two isolated notes at the registral extremes in a phrase which is otherwise constrained to a more normal tessitura -- something that would stand out topographically as being a short steep peak or dip -- you'll know there's probably only one logical place to make the position shift.
 
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Aside from the 2 octave scales and patterns that everyone has said (and I've done those too, to learn the entire fretboard), I've also taken my Gruv Gear FretWrap and put it on the fourth fret, and then play the same piece I was just playing. The FretWrap (or anything that you can put on your neck) will act as a barrier, so you can't go back to your "comfortable" position and are forced into trying something different. Once that gets somewhat familiar, put the FretWrap somewhere else and do the same thing.
 
I start every practice session with sight reading using Sight Reading Factory software. The first thing I do is scan the entire piece looking for highest notes and lowest notes so that I can determine the best position that minimizes position changes (I play a four string). When I have to change positions, I look for rest notes or notes that allow an open string for opportunities to switch positions.

As an aside, sight reading is great way to improve fretless intonation because you have to look at the notation, not your fingerboard. Transposing up an octave is even better because the higher frequencies are less forgiving.
 
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I'm a long-time player who started taking lessons a few months ago. To put things in perspective, when I first played (electric) for my teacher who has a Master's in bass performance and who plays electric, and DB in symphonies, he said "what do you want ME to teach you?" Believe me, he's since found a bunch but he says I'm a solid, functional bass player. My sight reading is weak when I have to shift over the 5th fret, my intuitive ear to fingerboard skills are weak but all being worked on.

I can sight read quite well from nut to fifth fret. I learned to read very well on clarinet where one's hands and fingers stay in one position... On bass, I have little trouble even reading up many ledger lines (reading, but not executing). The weak spot is choosing when and to which position to shift. My ability to read and execute to the fifth fret came without much work when I first picked up bass 25 years ago so I have no insight into how my brain reads stuff and then puts my fingers to work.

Among other things, we are working through the Patitucci Etudes. I mean, digging in for hours (not at one sitting) butI'm not sure that intuitive shifting is setting in as much as I'm just memorizing the etudes. For instance, if I then go to sight read some Abersold playalongs, I'm stuck as soon as I have to shift. I have to stop and figure out the shifts. I was hoping that a teacher would write some exact fingerings and position shifts for me to "memorize" but he won't have it, and he says I'll thank him later (and he's not being lazy). He did give me fingerings for two octave scales so that helped a lot. I've also noted that the Berklee Chord Studies for Bass gives fingerings only in Chapter 1 and the forward says/implies it's best to find your own way and that there are many ways to play the same thing so the student should find many ways. I get it....but:

How does it become intuitive? Please go back in time to when you didnt just intuitively "know" or "hear" what is right. What should I be paying attention to when working on shifting in order to facilitate it's becoming second nature? My teacher tells me to always shift to a position that easily gives me a group of notes but I have trouble seeing "the word" that a group of notes writes so I'm wondering if I'm overlooking something. Any insight is much appreciated!


You are totally right when raising those questions. You've actually touched on a subject that's a PROBLEM regarding our instrument, and although some would argue that there are thousands of fingering systems to address the subject, the truth is that there's no real system out there, 'cause all that exist is based on keys, scale and arpeggios. But what about atonal music...? Shifting will remain a very vague topic, no mater how much one has worked out zillions of etudes. The problem lies on the non-fixed structure of our instrument, the electric bass; that's why other instruments like the saxophone or the trumpet will always read much more and easier any material than our bass. They've got fixed structure, just one way to finger a note. We have to decide all the time. But once understood the problem, where to look for the solution is obvious: we need to find a fixed structure for our instrument.

Many years ago I came out - after a long research - with a way to handle reading fingering wise on the bass. Today I have developed another, more sophisticated way to do it (a book's in preparation), but as an example
here's that old note-reading fingering system (though quite condensed):

To read notes on the bass and have the written part generate for you all the fingering automatically, do the following:

1) First, stop looking for key-positions: it's an insecure method. Aside from the 2 related keys suggested by the key signature at the beginning of the written part, there is no guarantee that all eventual key modulations will be indicated during a piece; so, you may suddenly find yourself holding a position that's out of key, and chasing for accidentals and intervals as far ahead on the page as possible, hoping they suggest your positions. So, if keys are not indicated, what then should you do, use your ears...? Moreover, what key positions are you going to chose when the music is atonal? To end this problem we must have a new structural approach of the instrument, for example as follows:


2) Let's divide the fingerboard in 5 identical sub-blocks, each covering an area of 5 frets. The first sub-block goes from the nut (or 0 fret) to the 4th fret; 2nd sub-block from the 5th to the 9th fret; the 3rd from the 10th to the 14th; the 4th from 15th to 19th; the 5th from 20th to 24th. (It's assumed we are using a 2 octaves bass.)


3) Now let's call these sub-blocks as follows: sub-block A1, sub-block A2, sub-block A3, sub-block A4 and sub-block A5. Each sub-block must be understood as a fraction of a SEMI-VIRTUAL general block that comprises the entire harmonic range of the instrument (it's semi-virtual because only one portion of it exists physically at a time on the instrument).


4) This general and semi-virtual block is constructed from the sub-block A1, which comprises all the strings between 0 and 4th fret, adding as many virtual treble strings remaining sub-blocks exist (in this case it add 4 virtual strings that are 4 sub-blocks). This general block contains 5 sub-blocks existing and covers the entire range of the instrument.

4) Sub-blocks are partials of the general block and their registers are separated by a physical distance (horizontal) equivalent to a 4th interval. Each sub-block also corresponds to a fixed position for the fingering hand and covers all the strings. Moving up from a sub-block to the next higher sub-block (eg sub-block 1a to sub-block 2a), the new sub-block will include one additional upper string, previously contained only in virtual form, while it loses one low string, contained the previously for real. Conversely, if we descend to a sub-block to the next lower sub-block, the new block will include 1 low string that was only virtually contained in the above, but lose 1 real high string. It follows then that if we ascend 2 sub-blocks (eg sub-block 1a to sub-block 3a) we win 2 treble strings that were once virtual and lose 2 low ones that were real. And so on until the last sub-block: 4 virtual high strings won and 4 real low ones lost).

5) Let's name our general block GAB (General A Block), and build then a new parallel overall block, called GBB (General B Block) and place it exactly a second major up (two frets) above the first one, that is, on the 2nd fret of the instrument. This new GBB does not correspond, however, to 5 sub-blocks as the BGA, but to only 4 sub-blocks as the first general block covered the whole bass register. The sub-blocks belonging to the GBB will be called 1b, 2b, 3b and 4b. There will be certain very precise rules to navigate through all these 9 sub blocks, as we will see soon, but all sub blocks share the same and only way to be handled internally: fingers 2, 3 and 4 (middle, ring and pinky) correspond exclusively to the 3rd, 4th and 5th fret of each sub-block, respectively, while finger 1 covers 1st and 2nd fret.

6) Finger 1 follows a special rule: while playing on both frets (1st and 2nd), finger 1 is not allowed to play two consecutive notes in a row, regardless of the implied strings. If we are to play two consecutive notes that involve a repetition of the 1st finger between its two adjacent frets, the hand must change to the nearest sub-block that belongs to the other general block. That is, if the hand is in a sub-block of the GAB, the hand must then go to one of GBB, and this sub block should also be the closest sub-block available from this general block (note that any sub-block will always be located between two sub-blocks of the other general block).

7) Use the following formula: if the current sub-block corresponds to the GAB, the nearest GBB sub-block is the next higher sub-block (towards the bridge); and if the current sub-block corresponds to GBB, the nearest GAB sub-block is the next lower sub-block (towards the nut).

8) When one of the written notes to be played exceeds the register of the current sub-block, the hand must switch to a sub-block that contains it, and this sub-block will correspond always to the same general block (GAB or GBB). It is a "register-shift" type and does not imply a change of general block. Only the forbidden repetition of 1st finger onto adjacent frets implies a change of general blocks.

9) Unless it's the final note in the score, or a note followed by a long rest, each sub-block should be used to play at least two notes. Otherwise, a single note does not justify the use of a sub-block. Therefore, the reader needs only to read in advance (or be aware of) 2 notes in the written part, no more. Therefore, all fingerings of any written material, as falling inside the sub-blocks (or hand positions, where each fingering is pre-allocated), will be generated automatically by the system.

10) To start then reading a musical part, all that's needed to be chosen is a sub-block containing the first two notes of it, regardless of the general block employed (GAB or GBB). Then you'll be surprised, everything works automatically.

Good luck!
 
... that's why other instruments like the saxophone or the trumpet will always read much more and easier any material than our bass. They've got fixed structure, just one way to finger a note.

This is not accurate, there are multiple ways to play the same pitch on those instruments. There's a great anecdote of a saxophonist at NEC talking to Joe Allard about fingering issues and Joe picks up his horn and plays an ascending major scale in 2 octaves using the fingering for a descending scale. It's also one of the reasons why horn players can get persnickety about accidentals in parts, their fingering can change for specific pitches contingent on the "key" of the passage or whether the line is ascending or descending.
 
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This is not accurate, there are multiple ways to play the same pitch on those instruments. There's a great anecdote of a saxophonist at NEC talking to Joe Allard about fingering issues and Joe picks up his horn and plays an ascending major scale in 2 octaves using the fingering for a descending scale. It's also one of the reasons why horn players can get persnickety about accidentals in parts, their fingering can change for specific pitches contingent on the "key" of the passage or whether the line is ascending or descending.

Some horns like saxophone and trumpet do have alternative fingerings but they come up as real alternatives options, the player can overlook them. Regular fingerings are provided by the instrument itself. Fingering are not an issue within themselves, let alone by comparison to the bass.
 
Just to reinforce what Ed Fuqua mentioned, you really want to know where the notes are on the bass. You may be comfortable with all of the notes up to the 5th fret but once you are aware that there is usually more than one place to play the same note you will intuitively gravitate towards the one that can help you continue with the piece with the most efficiency and comfort. For example if you see a "C" on the sheet music do you only consider A string / third fret which is in your five fret area, or do you consider the E string / 8th fret which is out of your comfort zone?
 
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