• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Adjustable / Removable Necks... A question of tone.

#21
When words like "butchery", "ruined" and "firewood" are tossed about, all I see is someone spoiling for a tussle. More importantly, a tussle that would soundly derail the central concern of this thread.

Clearly, Lamarre's modification didn't turn the instrument in question into "firewood", since Ken Smith plays it today and calls it "a master Mother Fxxxxxg bass". Sounds like the modifications were reversible.

Secondly, the point I was making was that Rufus Reid DID use Lamarre for his conversion (of a c. 1805 Josef Rieger), and he IS pleased; in fact, he praises and links to Lamarre on his website. Chris Fitzgerald wrote up a nice discussion of Reid and the conversion in a 2008 thread right here.

BTW, Gerard, it looks like pinning the soundpost in place is a precaution against having it fall when the neck's removed.
 
#22
Yeah I get that the nails prevent the post falling, but as one who has repaired many split bellies due to posts staying up during rough travels, that approach scares me. Patrick Charton's new Allen key adjustable post seems it might help. He says it can back right off for travel. I'm working on a solution too but it'll be a while yet before the design is settled. Won't involve any holes through the plates.

Thanks for clarifying the quote.

(edited later to correct poorly auto-corrected spellings - I shouldn't try posting from my phone while out for dinner, even in an interesting discussion)
 
#23
I feel like I have to step up to the plate for Mr. Lamarre here after the Harsh words. What the man does is FAR from butchery. I know several people who have removable necks of his (on older basses as well as his own creations), and have played several of them myself pre- and post- RN operation. If anything the ones who have had it added have had an improved sound, not a detriment.

I can't go into details on how exactly the neck design works (I haven't personally signed one, but he has a non-disclosure agreement for the people who use his RN's) but it's partially because of the way the design works that he has to leave a small part of the heel, and also for extra stability in the neck block while the bass is apart and in transport.

I have nothing but pleasant things to say about Mario and his work. He was trained as a sculptor before he was ever a luthier, so some of the stuff he does is not your average person's first reaction, but it's always well thought out and works very well. I think anyone who calls his work "butchery", whatever his reputation, really needs to call into question whether or not he's saying so because it's actually bad, or because it's just not the way he would have approached the problem. Butchery is a strong word for something that someone spends a lot of time and care on.

regards,

eerbrev
 
#24
I feel the same way..

I have a lot more respect for Lamarre than Ken, and what he allegedly says Barrie said. It isn't professional to bad mouth another person like that, and honestly, if I wanted someone's opinion on my bass, I'd go to Lamarre over Ken any day.

I've played a bass with Lamarre's RN, and the bass was worth upwards of $75,000. I would never say it was a detriment, and if I was going to get a RN, I'd go to Mario.

Mind you, Ken also badmouths Laborie endpins quite a bit as well; maybe he just isn't very progressive with his DB building.
 
#25
Eric Hochberg said:
The old pedigree bass he had acquired the last couple of times I went to hear him had busetto corners, so I don't think that is the one.
Click to expand...

Rufus' bass is a busetto (see attached pic). I asked him about the bass and the conversion in a post a few years back. Unlike Ken, Rufus thinks very highly of Mario's work. I've seen Rufus play his bass many times, and even driven him in from the airport and watched him put it together from the flight case more than once. Iconoclastic hyperbole aside, the work on the conversion is first rate, and is exactly what Rufus asked for. The screw in the heel looks weird at first (I questioned it when I first saw it) but when playing the bass, you don't even notice it. Here's what Rufus told me about the bass when I asked him for the story:


Rufus Reid said:
My bass is a German circa 1805, JOSEF RIEGER. Don Robertson from ALBUQUERQUE, NM, 505-889-2999 [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
drilled the hole for the slanted Rabbath end pin. Christian Laborie, luthier, from France, originally designed the carbon graphite end pin. I have it and I now use an end pin made from an “oak” dowel. The sound is much richer and deeper, like back in the day before steel end pins.

Mario Lamarre, a Montreal luthier, did the conversion on my bass. He makes basses that sound and look beautiful. He is a Master Luthier.
Check out his site: http://www.lamario.ca/ Also check this article about a bass from 1840 with a detachable neck: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

The custom case is made of airplane aluminum. It is a flat box and is cargo friendly and is 101” within the airlines requirements of 115 linear dimensions: W+H+L.
Yes, you still must pay excess charges, but you cannot be denied as the weight is also under 70 lbs. Each bass, as you know is different so the total weight will be different. I only travel with a canvas soft bag. The Moradian case will be too heavy too.

Most airlines weight limit is 100 lbs, but Continental and Northwest Airlines is at 70 lbs and they are strict. This why everyone is moving toward the smaller instruments like the David Gage, Czech-eze Bass or the Kolstein LaFaro Buseto Bass, or some other stick bass, or getting a bass D’Jour! That is not for me if I can help it. When Mario Larmarre told me he could convert MY bass, that was the answer. I can put the bass together and apart in twenty minutes. Yes, I know for most, this is too much trouble, but for me, it is worth it! The bottom line is I can play my bass all the time anywhere in the world.

Hope this has been helpful. I couldn’t be happier! The bass sounds as good or even better than it did before this work. Honest!
Click to expand...

I had a couple of further questions, and me embedded the answers in the email. I'll post the exchange verbatim:

1) Is this your main #1 bass you had this done to? If so, that's impressive, and shows a *lot* of faith in your luthier. (RR) YES!

2) I assume this kind of thing can be done to almost any bass? Yes, to my knowledge all basses can be altered. Mario Lamarre could answer that better. What keeps the soundpost from falling? My sound-post is pinned with a tiny pin through the top and back. I never change my post, so that was my choice and it does not affect the sound. He cut a new post, found the “sweet spot” and pinned it! There is an alternate way with an apron that wraps the bass before you take it out of tension. This works well, but if for some reason the apron becomes loosened! :-( I know how to set a post, but I do not wish to do this daily! :-)

3) Last, do your strings get fussy or worn from being taken on and off when you travel? The jury is still out on this! This is the only variable that I am not really sure, yet, especially with the VELVET-Anima strings. I am, however, very careful taking them on and off and that the notches for the strings are well lubricated with soft pencil graphite, so the string moves smoothly over the bridge. So far, this has not been an issue to be concerned about.
Click to expand...

EDIT: I see JSN found that thread before I saw his post. D'oh!
 

Attachments

  • rufusreed.jpg
    rufusreed.jpg
    12 KB · Views: 130
#26
If I may step into the fray here--Mario Lamarre is a friend, and though I'm not a huge fan of tilting a neck off the front of the neck block, nothing Mario does resembles butchery. I have worked on a few basses with his neck joint, and they played and sounded fine. Many people believe that lessening the attachment points of a bass' neck causes less vibration in the neck and more in the body, therefore increasing volume. I don't agree, but nowadays removable necks have become a necessity for many traveling bassists, and we have to embrace this minor change in technology.
 
#27
Jsn said:
When words like "butchery", "ruined" and "firewood" are tossed about, all I see is someone spoiling for a tussle. More importantly, a tussle that would soundly derail the central concern of this thread.

Clearly, Lamarre's modification didn't turn the instrument in question into "firewood", since Ken Smith plays it today and calls it "a master Mother Fxxxxxg bass". Sounds like the modifications were reversible.
Click to expand...

eerbrev said:
I feel like I have to step up to the plate for Mr. Lamarre here after the Harsh words. What the man does is FAR from butchery....I think anyone who calls his work "butchery", whatever his reputation, really needs to call into question whether or not he's saying so because it's actually bad, or because it's just not the way he would have approached the problem. Butchery is a strong word for something that someone spends a lot of time and care on.

regards,

eerbrev
Click to expand...

Herbie 80's said:
I feel the same way..

I have a lot more respect for Lamarre than Ken, and what he allegedly says Barrie said. It isn't professional to bad mouth another person like that, and honestly, if I wanted someone's opinion on my bass, I'd go to Lamarre over Ken any day.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Consider the source, folks. Consider the source.
 
#28
Firstly, the controversial post does allude to Barrie's opinion of the work, but neither quotes him nor attributes the harsh opinions directly to him, and I think he would never use words like that.

Secondly, Having a split heel is a bit strange, especially on such a valuable instrument, but in this case the ribs are so deep that the part of the heel left on the neck is still huge. And, looking at the neck angle and overstand, I find it very hard to believe that the neck is original anyway.
 
#31
Seems preferable to have an established master luthier 'butcher' a masterwork than to have airline baggage handlers do it. The very best of flight trunks have had their necks torn off or bent. Horrible things have happened to necks and bodies owing to the 7 foot tall trunks basses are shipped in apparently angering baggage handlers. So the question becomes a matter of priorities. Does the player choose a relatively cheap, unimportant bass to travel with, compromising sound quality in exchange for convenience and safety? Does the player spend inordinate effort tracking down suitable instruments to play in each city, usually finding that nothing adequate is available and having to settle for poorly set up, awful sounding basses? Does the player just stay home? Or drive from city to city, risking car accidents (all too common these days) where the bass might well be crushed completely? Or does the player have an operation done to make the neck removable for transport, something which has been done for at least 2 centuries starting, apparently, with Prokop?
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Mario didn't invent this design as the now 13 year old article clearly shows. He's refined it certainly, but that's what we luthiers do; we try to improve on the experiments of our predecessors. Many fail, often miserably, but there is truly remarkable work being done today. I don't too many reasons to shy away from having a bass converted in this way. Most of my hesitation is around the soundpost, but as I said earlier, people are working on that problem too. It's a bit like evolution; baggage handlers are the predator, players must respond to that pressure by finding the best possible adaptations so as to have their instruments survive depredation.
 
#34
I love my New Standard bass that Arnold put together. It's a fully carved bass that looks, sounds and plays great. My Lemur bass is also a RN bass.

Based on flight laws after 9/11 as well as how items move on and off this very small island of Kauai, it is next to impossible to travel with a bass unless it has a RN. Neither is an antique so it was never a matter of "painting a smile" on the Mona Lisa. :hyper::hiding::hyper:
 
#35
Eric Hochberg said:
My guess is that using the term "butchery" in this case refers to the act of altering a classic antique master bass in this way, not the actual quality of the work itself.
Click to expand...

So is that bass currently being restored to its 18th century state, so it can be used by a player specialized in 18th century period performance practice? Lesser neck angle, shorter bridge, gut strings, tuned lower, never playing in thumb position etc ?. Or is it keeping its 'hot rod' specs of late 20th century performance practice?

I think that removable necks will become ever more common, standard even, in the 21st century. Perhaps 75 years from now 'bringing a bass to modern standards' will mean installing a removable neck in addition to all the other 20thc changes.

IMO, chances are good, that same bass will have a RN reinstalled on it sometime in the next 100 years.

There are however, different ways a RN can be done, and sure the 'button' look might not be to everyone's taste, but the RN provides a solution to a real problem for the DB world of today and tomorrow.

To the OP, IIRC, you are a 5ths tuning guy living in Alaska. For you, yes get a RN bass. You can't easily borrow a bass when you travel and install 5th tuning strings, nor easily travel with a non-RN bass. So either a new bass with a RN, or your current bass altered with a RN will do nice. As usual, the old advice of "try some out" applies.
 
#36
longfinger said:
To the OP, IIRC, you are a 5ths tuning guy living in Alaska. For you, yes get a RN bass. You can't easily borrow a bass when you travel and install 5th tuning strings, nor easily travel with a non-RN bass. So either a new bass with a RN, or your current bass altered with a RN will do nice. As usual, the old advice of "try some out" applies.
Click to expand...

Thanks longfinger for putting it like that. What you point out is right on target and been my general feelings all along. I have just been a tad concerned about potential loss of tone after speaking with a noted expert who has strong opinions on the subject, some of which happened to mildly derail this thread for a time. Glad it did though because a few older threads were brought to my attention that I had only looked at briefly before.
 
#38
Rough crowd out there in the world wide waste of time today...

As a player whose main bass has a removable neck, I find it of incredible value to me; I took it apart this weekend for travel. I don't think I'd ever be without a high quality removable neck bass in the future. In the last four years, there has never been a question of "should I take my bass or not?" I also love the idea that I can experiment with different neck configurations and keep the same box. There are many different ways to achieve the same end result in terms of visible or non-visible hardware; my preference is for invisible. I feel just as strong about having a trapdoor to be able to access the soundpost and inside.

As a luthier, I laugh out loud every time I hear someone ask this question; the guitar companies have been having this war for half a century. There was an article a few years back in American Lutherie magazine where a fairly technical acoustic study was performed on both fixed neck and removeable neck guitars and the general results were that the removable neck instrument actually sounded better and spec'd out better in the test lab.

As a little sneak preview, I've got a new mountaineering installment of the "field testing" gallery coming up in a few months that will set a whole new standard for a removable neck double bass and how far you can take them!:)

j.
www.condino.com
www.kaybassrepair.com
 
#39
Browsing KSB forum and saw this, thought of this thread!
http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=1731

From the first post:
"A few years ago, the former owner took this Bass up to Mario Lamarre in Montreal and had it modified with a detachable neck for travel. The work is beautiful and the Bass feels as solid as can be."

And later:
"The first thought you get is that the bass needs a new neck graft and everything put back to normal to be a pedigree Italian in an original state but after playing it, it feels as normal as any other bass I have."
 
#40
He also goes on later to say that while the bass is being 'restored', it is getting a new neck graft. But why? His previous comments seem to illustrate that the detachable neck is good. I guess he doesn't travel for gigs much..
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back