Advice on improving "behind the beat."

[Robus]

I've played guitar for 35 years but took up bass seriously only last summer. I've been practicing hard to get up to the level where I can hold down a bass line with other players without embarrassing myself. My right hand dexterity and comfort on the fretboard are coming along nicely.

The problem is my timing. I have a persistent tendency to anticipate the beat. It built up over many years of playing aggressive music on guitar, with some pretty good bass players and drummers who could keep it tight.

For the kind of music I want to play now (slower music in a pop/country-rock style) this will not do. In a lot of that music I notice the bass player often plays a little behind the beat. This doesn't come naturally for me.

Any advice on songs that I can learn or exercises that will help me develop a more relaxed approach? I do practice with a metronome-not very consistently at first, but since I've identified this weakness I've started doing it religiously.

The last two songs I learned were Steely Dan "Rikki Don't Lose That Number" and America "Ventura Highway." Both good examples of the kind of timing I'd like to develop. Recommend others?

 

[mambo4]

Here's a big thread on ahead/behind/on the beat and how it means different things to different people

metronome practice will improve your rhythmic accuracy, so its good for awareness.
to relax your time feel try the metronome at half speed , beats on on 2 & 4.

 

[Robus]

Here's a big thread on ahead/behind/on the beat and how it means different things to different people

metronome practice will improve your rhythmic accuracy, so its good for awareness.
to relax your time feel try the metronome at half speed , beats on on 2 & 4.

Thanks. I've been using the metronome that way recently. Hoping it will help me get tighter on the downbeat.

 

[markjsmithbass]

In terms of thinking ahead and behind the beat try to act the feel. If you want to be ahead of the beat, open your eyes a little wider, stand up if you're sat down and try to energize yourself to some extent. Some players are consistently ahead of the beat and you tend to find they are like that in every day life. If you're one of those manic kind of guys then you're likely to push the beat.
Do the opposite in playing behind the beat. Try to physically feel that laid back vibe. Sit down, chill out. Almost feel your pulse slowing. I find this works a lot better than trying to place the notes exactly around the beat. You're dealing with such tiny deviations under the musical microscope that it can be very hard to purposely move around the beat with any form of accuracy. It's a very subtle thing and I guess that's why it's labelled more under feel. You have to feel it rather than taking the robotic 'quantize' approach.

Of course there's also hitting the beat clean on the nose, right in the middle. Try recording yourself playing along to a metronome or drum machine while playing in different feels. First try to hit the clicks or beats with absolute precision. Next try playing behind the beat. Then try playing ahead of the beat (I guess the op has that already nailed!). Each time try changing your actual physical feel. It's amazing how small changes in your mood or feeling can have quite obvious effects on your playing.

I made an analogy about this side of music. Imagine you're in a car driving down the road. You're in the driver's seat. That's pretty much down the middle of the beat. Now imagine being sat on the front of the bonnet, whooping and hollering into the wind. The car's at the same speed but you're on the front end. That's pushing the beat. Now imagine being sat in the back seat, chilled out and quietly watching the scenery go by. The car's at the same speed but you're at the back of the car, feeling sleepy. That's laying back on the beat.

 

[mambo4]

In terms of thinking ahead and behind the beat try to act the feel... I find this works a lot better than trying to place the notes exactly around the beat. You're dealing with such tiny deviations under the musical microscope that it can be very hard to purposely move around the beat with any form of accuracy. It's a very subtle thing and I guess that's why it's labelled more under feel. You have to feel it rather than taking the robotic 'quantize' approach.

I have found this to be the case as well, even though I routinely despise "you just have to feel it" as an answer to a legit musical question.

 

[Robus]

In terms of thinking ahead and behind the beat try to act the feel. If you want to be ahead of the beat, open your eyes a little wider, stand up if you're sat down and try to energize yourself to some extent. Some players are consistently ahead of the beat and you tend to find they are like that in every day life. If you're one of those manic kind of guys then you're likely to push the beat.
Do the opposite in playing behind the beat. Try to physically feel that laid back vibe. Sit down, chill out. Almost feel your pulse slowing. I find this works a lot better than trying to place the notes exactly around the beat. You're dealing with such tiny deviations under the musical microscope that it can be very hard to purposely move around the beat with any form of accuracy. It's a very subtle thing and I guess that's why it's labelled more under feel. You have to feel it rather than taking the robotic 'quantize' approach.

Of course there's also hitting the beat clean on the nose, right in the middle. Try recording yourself playing along to a metronome or drum machine while playing in different feels. First try to hit the clicks or beats with absolute precision. Next try playing behind the beat. Then try playing ahead of the beat (I guess the op has that already nailed!). Each time try changing your actual physical feel. It's amazing how small changes in your mood or feeling can have quite obvious effects on your playing.

I made an analogy about this side of music. Imagine you're in a car driving down the road. You're in the driver's seat. That's pretty much down the middle of the beat. Now imagine being sat on the front of the bonnet, whooping and hollering into the wind. The car's at the same speed but you're on the front end. That's pushing the beat. Now imagine being sat in the back seat, chilled out and quietly watching the scenery go by. The car's at the same speed but you're at the back of the car, feeling sleepy. That's laying back on the beat.

Thanks, that's great advice. I've noticed that standing while I play makes the problem more noticeable. I'll give this a try and see if changing my posture, stance, mindset can help me better control the groove. I've seen your youtube videos!

 

[Rocktometrist]

Technique/pickup choices can make a difference too. Playing right up on the bridge gives a more immediate attack, closer to the neck can be a little softer with more "bloom". (Same concept for neck vs. bridge pickup). For me, at least, having a softer attack makes it easier to settle into a groove slightly behind the beat. (I'm not saying playing at the neck will automatically make you play on the back side, just that the more mellow attack helps it sit there easier, without feeling like you're dragging). YMMV...

 

[AndrewFord]

No easy answer, I find many naturally either play relaxed, like myself, and have to force themselves to play "on top", or the reverse......there are applications for both, familiarize yourself with music that features that style of playing ie. reggae, r&b etc. and emulate, internalize it, that is what I had to do in order to play more edgey when required.

 

[Latitude94941]

In terms of thinking ahead and behind the beat try to act the feel. If you want to be ahead of the beat, open your eyes a little wider, stand up if you're sat down and try to energize yourself to some extent. Some players are consistently ahead of the beat and you tend to find they are like that in every day life. If you're one of those manic kind of guys then you're likely to push the beat.
Do the opposite in playing behind the beat. Try to physically feel that laid back vibe. Sit down, chill out. Almost feel your pulse slowing. I find this works a lot better than trying to place the notes exactly around the beat. You're dealing with such tiny deviations under the musical microscope that it can be very hard to purposely move around the beat with any form of accuracy. It's a very subtle thing and I guess that's why it's labelled more under feel. You have to feel it rather than taking the robotic 'quantize' approach.

Of course there's also hitting the beat clean on the nose, right in the middle. Try recording yourself playing along to a metronome or drum machine while playing in different feels. First try to hit the clicks or beats with absolute precision. Next try playing behind the beat. Then try playing ahead of the beat (I guess the op has that already nailed!). Each time try changing your actual physical feel. It's amazing how small changes in your mood or feeling can have quite obvious effects on your playing.

I made an analogy about this side of music. Imagine you're in a car driving down the road. You're in the driver's seat. That's pretty much down the middle of the beat. Now imagine being sat on the front of the bonnet, whooping and hollering into the wind. The car's at the same speed but you're on the front end. That's pushing the beat. Now imagine being sat in the back seat, chilled out and quietly watching the scenery go by. The car's at the same speed but you're at the back of the car, feeling sleepy. That's laying back on the beat.

Interesting ideas here, Mark. Thanks for taking the time to write this.

 

[lakefx]

In terms of thinking ahead and behind the beat try to act the feel. If you want to be ahead of the beat, open your eyes a little wider, stand up if you're sat down and try to energize yourself to some extent. Some players are consistently ahead of the beat and you tend to find they are like that in every day life. If you're one of those manic kind of guys then you're likely to push the beat.
Do the opposite in playing behind the beat. Try to physically feel that laid back vibe. Sit down, chill out. Almost feel your pulse slowing.

I'm not sure this will work well for someone who has three heelers. I know mine keep my energy level up and pulse racing

 

[adi77]

practice everything by james brown

 

[Joebone]

I've played guitar for 35 years but took up bass seriously only last summer. I've been practicing hard to get up to the level where I can hold down a bass line with other players without embarrassing myself. My right hand dexterity and comfort on the fretboard are coming along nicely.

The problem is my timing. I have a persistent tendency to anticipate the beat. It built up over many years of playing aggressive music on guitar, with some pretty good bass players and drummers who could keep it tight.

For the kind of music I want to play now (slower music in a pop/country-rock style) this will not do. In a lot of that music I notice the bass player often plays a little behind the beat. This doesn't come naturally for me.

Any advice on songs that I can learn or exercises that will help me develop a more relaxed approach? I do practice with a metronome-not very consistently at first, but since I've identified this weakness I've started doing it religiously.

The last two songs I learned were Steely Dan "Rikki Don't Lose That Number" and America "Ventura Highway." Both good examples of the kind of timing I'd like to develop. Recommend others?

The poster who recommended posture and attitude is on to something. I, like you, tend to play ahead a bit - years of latin music as a trombonist, and exposure to the NYC jazz thing - the "New York Burn." I'm also somewhat excitable by nature - just wired that way. In starting to work through this ahead/behind thing, I've found that posture and attitude do make a difference - but then, as a horn player, I was also used to using posture to change airstream characteristics - I used to play with a trumpeter who was very buff, very health-conscious, and played with shoulders back, head up, in a classic big-band trumpet fashion - UNTIL it was time to play klezmer tunes, when he would almost shrivel into a shtetl-like posture and sound…and it worked.

If you want a masterclass in country-style, behind-the -beat, you need to get hold of the Lucinda Williams album "World Without Tears." Taras Produniak on bass, Jim Christie on drums. I understand they played together with Dwight Yoakum for a long time before landing with Williams for a while. They are tight together, and they play behind the beat like you would not believe, and it is PERFECT for this set of Williams tunes. Had the good fortune to see them live, touring behind that album, and they delivered that vibe at the Greek Theater in LA. Even in moving across the stage, Taras had this mellow away about him that had my host wondering about his drug usage - I responded that he was probably just high on this particular subset of life.

The Steely Dan study can be useful - R&B session guys fueled a lot of their sound, and there is a heck of a lot of soul, R&B, hip-hop and New Orleans stuff to explore that will help illuminate this. Get the "Voodoo" album by D'Angelo, with Pino Palladino and Rafael Saddiq on bass, and Questlove on drums…it's an education! Also pay attention to Charlie Watts on just about anything the Rolling Stones recorded - to me, his natural pocket is on the behind side, and it has a lot to do with how that band sounded.

 

[Rocktometrist]

I'm not sure this will work well for someone who has three heelers. I know mine keep my energy level up and pulse racing

Dang, we might need to start a "bass players that own heelers" club! (That's my cattle dog, Rocket, catching the frisbee in my avatar.)

 

[lakefx]

Dang, we might need to start a "bass players that own heelers" club! (That's my cattle dog, Rocket, catching the frisbee in my avatar.)

I'd be in for a number on that. My two half cattle dogs add up to one whole number

 

[HolmeBass]

Reggae, soul, and slow blues. I think feeling the music in half-time might help too; it does seem to affect my posture and mood when I focus on the pulse at half-time, normal time, or double time.

 

[Robus]

I'm not sure this will work well for someone who has three heelers. I know mine keep my energy level up and pulse racing

One of them got skunked last week. Disaster.

 

[Groove Master]

I've played guitar for 35 years but took up bass seriously only last summer. I've been practicing hard to get up to the level where I can hold down a bass line with other players without embarrassing myself. My right hand dexterity and comfort on the fretboard are coming along nicely.

The problem is my timing. I have a persistent tendency to anticipate the beat. It built up over many years of playing aggressive music on guitar, with some pretty good bass players and drummers who could keep it tight.

For the kind of music I want to play now (slower music in a pop/country-rock style) this will not do. In a lot of that music I notice the bass player often plays a little behind the beat. This doesn't come naturally for me.

Any advice on songs that I can learn or exercises that will help me develop a more relaxed approach? I do practice with a metronome-not very consistently at first, but since I've identified this weakness I've started doing it religiously.

The last two songs I learned were Steely Dan "Rikki Don't Lose That Number" and America "Ventura Highway." Both good examples of the kind of timing I'd like to develop. Recommend others?

Interesting subject.

From your 2 examples here are my first thoughts:

The America song is played by the guitars so up front that the bass sounds relaxed becaused he is playing on the beat to my ears and doesn't make the band rush when the bass comes in.

For the SD song, that band hired the best rhythms sections in the history of music in my opinion. These are the best first calls studio players you can get!!! They don't rush, they play notes that land at the right place ;-)

I agree that learning some SD or Donald Fagen tunes is a great place to start if you want to know how to play at the right place.

I strongly suggest learning the Nightfly album from DF. The best studio bassists are on it: Marcus Miller, Will Lee, Anthony Jackson, Chuck Rainey, Abe Laboriel. Have a listen ;-)

 

[Robus]

This is terrific information. Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. There are some great music recommendations that I'll be sure to check out. Amazon order going out now. On it will be some Lucinda Williams, Donald Fagan, etc.

 

[Freekmagnet]

I heard "Regiment" by David Byrne and Brian Eno about 25 years ago and I was completely entranced by laid back, funky feel of Busta "Cherry" Jones' bass playing. At the time, I was a teenager and it kind of gave me a my first roadmap as to how this kind of groove should sound. Even to this day, I don't think I've heard another song where the groove is so clearly way behind the beat and I come back to it all the time. It's really repetitive and easy to play, too.

 

[Robus]

Thanks, I gave it a listen. That a laid-back tribal groove for sure. Far as I can hear the bass player camps out on that low E and just lays it down. It makes the track.

I've been working on my timing every day with a metronome, usually set to half time and hearing the clicks as the backbeat. I'm getting better at finding the downbeat without anticipating. Notice that if I can nail the 1 the rest of the measure falls into place.

For anyone struggling with this or any timing issue, here's something I'm finding useful. Record the practice on a DAW. You can see just by looking at the waveform where you are in relation to the sub-division. If you are early, it's obvious at a glance. If you zoom in a little you can watch the waveform appear in real time as you play. It's good training as it gives you instant feedback.