Aguilar Tone Hammer 700 Rant

[lermgalieu]

IMO it's entirely reasonable for Aguilar to want to prevent Users "messing about" inside their amps. I would imagine all amplifier companies would have the same approach.

You fixed it and invalidated the warranty. Your choice.

I don't see how Aguilar could have done anything different.

I feel like your first two statements are in conflict. If it is really his choice, they could have just said "hey, we can't sell you the part, but feel free to repair it yourself, with the caveat that you will invalidate your warranty." Instead they said he "had" go to a service provider and they "had" to sign an NDA. To me that's not a very helpful or reasonable response, and I definitely see what they could have done differently.

For the record, once he owns the thing, he can do whatever he wants with it.

 

[PaulCISSA]

I'd love to know of a time when any amp manufacturer sent an internal part to an end user and told them to go ahead and grab the soldering iron.

OK, I'll play - 1999 Ashdown ABM300EVOII (which I still own) blows its 6-pole input jack apart out of warranty sometime around 2004. Common item - I keep them in my part bins now, but didn't at that time. Two emails to Ashdown UK and they ship me FOUR of them, free-of-charge from the UK with a photograph of the preamp board (assumably so I know where to find it) and a hand written note thanking me for contacting them. So there's that.......

 

[lermgalieu]

What happens when the customer damages the truck or the part when attempting to replace the part? How is the warranty handled, how is the damage covered and how uncomfortable do you think it might be when the customer's expectations do not meet with what the truck manufacturer is willing to do?

I see an awful lot of damage caused by well intentioned customers attempting to fix something with a soldering iron. Sometimes the damage can not be repaired, which makes for an uncomfortable conversation... especially when the part is no longer available (for out of warranty units obviously)



Some NDA's also discuss as a condition of the NDA specific requirement and/or expectations related to service. For example, I have seen some that require either a HI-POT or leakage current test for any work done to the primary circuit, also a ground bond integrity test. This is for both safety and liability reasons, even though it's generally considered good service practices. Also, this is one reason why SMPS/class D amp modules often require replacement rather than repair, as the modules ship from the factory with each module (linked by serial number) traced to a whole battery of safety tests.



Thanks, but to be clear there are plenty of problems that we do require that the amp be returned to an authorized service center that is experienced and understands the revision history or can accept specific information that the manufacturer requires. There are some products that must return to the factory due to the complexity and nature of the products. Generally, the cost is less and the turnaround time is shorter than many of the field service centers, so it's not a matter of time or cost but to get the repair done right in the most efficient way possible. We also require NDAs from our service centers and have expectations as well.

I don't have a problem with a service center needing to be under NDA, but the way the OP's issue was handled was not appropriate. I'm a lawyer. Certainly you can *condition* the right to service on other things (like being an authorized servicer or not voiding a warranty), but you definitely can't say "hey, you can't look inside the thing you own." It's called patent exhaustion. You own it, you own it. And its corollary: trade secret, schmade clecret.

 

[ultra60]

I'd love to know of a time when any amp manufacturer sent an internal part to an end user and told them to go ahead and grab the soldering iron.

I've bought parts, from GK, for the MB series heads. I called and asked if they sold parts to the general public. They replied "yes" and we went from there.

 

[Passinwind]

I'd love to know of a time when any amp manufacturer sent an internal part to an end user and told them to go ahead and grab the soldering iron.

Carvin used to do it routinely.

 

[BassmanPaul]

Not really though, as the OP found the part needed and repaired his own amp without their help....

Independence is good. LOL

 

[SteveIII]

What happens when the customer damages the truck or the part when attempting to replace the part? How is the warranty handled, how is the damage covered and how uncomfortable do you think it might be when the customer's expectations do not meet with what the truck manufacturer is willing to do?

We have customers damaging their trucks more often than you would think. The company is very clear, if you break your truck by trying to fix it, it is on your dime. I had a customer use cheaper oil filters with the wrong micron rating and the engine grenaded. The customer had to pay for the replacement. To be honest I am probably getting too used to dealing with customers getting angry about how warranty works.
I guess I wasn't very clear in my post. The manufacturer does not GIVE the part to the customer and the parts we are talking about are generally sold to out of warranty customers. As well in Canada if you are working on a truck and not a certified mechanic you can get fined if caught.
I am generally selling to other shops and certified repair facilities not the end users.
It probably was not the best illustration as the more I think about it the more the industries are different.

 

[Mingo Sanders]

Most of us in here have at least a rudimentary knowledge of electronics and the ability to do simple repairs, why make your customers feel like corporate thieves/spys for wanting to effect an easy fix.

Many in here lack basic reading comprehension skills. Some have comprehensive knowledge and experience, and share it freely. We're, in a word, "diverse."

 

[Frank77]

You're overreacting.

Yes, they could have sent you a replacement switch (free or not), but:

1. They don't know you personally, and how knowledgeable you are about troubleshooting / repairing electronics.
2. Until a qualified tech looks at the amp, there's no guarantee that a new switch will fix the issue. The problem could have been on the PCB itself (as in traces, vias and solder joints), or any other component in the circuit that enables the mute function.
3. In order to troubleshoot the amp, a tech needs the schematics.
4. Schematics are the recipe to make an exact copy of a given device, hence the need for a NDA. That's totally standard.

So, if they had sent you a replacement switch and it didn't fix the problem, now Aguilar would have had a customer that's a bit more aggravated than before, with an amp that STILL doesn't work and that possibly suffered further damage from an attempted repair by someone who (maybe) didn't quite have the skills (again, they don't know you).

What they did is totally par for the course, there's absolutely no reason to rant. Plus: Congrats, you fixed your amp.

 

[jjk2007]

I'd love to know of a time when any amp manufacturer sent an internal part to an end user and told them to go ahead and grab the soldering iron.

I had an Eden WT500 back in the day (mid to late 90’s) that I toured the snot out of for 3 years. I ended up busting the push button switch for stereo/bridge mode. I called up Eden to ask about repairs etc.....wish I could remember the lady’s name that I talked to but she asked if I was comfortable with a soldering iron.....I said ‘yes’. She took my address and about a week later I got a little box with a new switch inside. Took apart the amp and went to work. I thought that was pretty cool. Cost me $0. I’m not surprised that stuff like doesn’t really happen these days though.

 

[Jeff Scott]

I'd love to know of a time when any amp manufacturer sent an internal part to an end user and told them to go ahead and grab the soldering iron.

I have done so a couple of times with Walter Woods, once for some transistors, the second time, for a potentiometer. Both times, he send me several of the items in question.

 

[agedhorse]

We have right to repair laws that can affect consumer confidence bc they are rarely enforced unless something like iPhone battery leveling occurs.

Porsche tried to restrict factory parts to their dealer network 15 years ago, that didn't go well for them.

Anti tamper stickers aren't a legal reason to affect warranty coverage anymore

Class D power sections are a replace rather than component level repair so I've thought of all class D amps disposable. If you really want that sound forever hopefully there's a discreet preamp option.

What part of replacing a class D amp mode makes the amp disposable? It's no different than replacing any other (expensive) part.

 

[somebrains]

What part of replacing a class D amp mode makes the amp disposable? It's no different than replacing any other (expensive) part.

The same calculations that make a transmission job on a 2005 Accord the same cost as the replacement value of the car make an out of warranty power section repair for a used ~$300 mid tier class D head a non option for me.

If you love it, fix it.
If not, then buy a replacement.

 

[agedhorse]

The same calculations that make a transmission job on a 2005 Accord the same cost as the replacement value of the car make an out of warranty power section repair for a used ~$300 mid tier class D head a non option for me.

If you love it, fix it.
If not, then buy a replacement.

Since I'm not in the $300 class d amp market, that's not something I deal with. When the module is replaced and the amp is serviced according to factory guidelines, you end up with an essentially new amp, so for example if it costs 1/2 of the used value of an amp to repair, that's still 1/2 of the cost of a replacement amp.

Besides, the number of class D module failures that I see in either the Genz Benz or Mesa products is so low that it's rarely an issue.

When you have an older tube amp, say an SVT just because that's an easy amp to relate to, when you need to re-tube the amp after say 10 years and it needs a transformer too, and it costs $600 to do the repair including the labor to be sure that there are no underlying problems, yet you can replace the amp with another for say $800... is it worth repairing or are you better off replacing it with another used SVT?

 

[somebrains]

@agedhorse I was talking about the mid tier Markbass, GK, Peavey, and Aguilar $300 used heads and combos all over CL that have issues.

Any of the higher tier class d heads that are ~$500 used I'd still have to think about the time and expense vs replacement.

 

[arbitrary]

I'd be frustrated too; that's just silliness. Thanks for the info actually.

 

[SteveIII]

But you received the benefit of a light head. If you want an amp that is cheaper to repair than haul around some 40-80 lb a/b amp. I really like the 5 speed auto in my Honda so I had it rebuilt. Was it 4 times the cost of rebuilding the 3 speed in my 98 caravan? Sure But I received the benefit of driving a car with a much better transmission.
If you look at the prices of gear from the 50s, 60s, and 70s and adjust for inflation there was nothing as inexpensive as what we now have for options. The side effect is that it is often cheaper to replace than repair, but do you want a known piece of gear repaired or buy another used amp ?

 

[Frank77]

I had an Eden WT500 back in the day (mid to late 90’s) that I toured the snot out of for 3 years. I ended up busting the push button switch for stereo/bridge mode. I called up Eden to ask about repairs etc.....wish I could remember the lady’s name that I talked to but she asked if I was comfortable with a soldering iron.....I said ‘yes’. She took my address and about a week later I got a little box with a new switch inside. Took apart the amp and went to work. I thought that was pretty cool. Cost me $0. I’m not surprised that stuff like doesn’t really happen these days though.

The one time something similar happened to me, it was for an item that was no longer in production / supported by the manufacturer.

I needed a very specific potentiometer to repair a friend's flight simulator game controller (it was for the rudder control, needed a built-in wide dead spot in the center of the range if I remember right). I e-mailed customer support asking for an equivalent part, they asked me for my address and then mailed one my way that I received two weeks later. This was 2-3 years ago.

So it probably still happens today, but with an item that is still being sold in retail locations / supported by the manufacturer through its usual channels, I think the chances are generally (read in Larry David's voice) pretty...pretty...pretty slim.

 

[The Bass Clef]

But you received the benefit of a light head. If you want an amp that is cheaper to repair than haul around some 40-80 lb a/b amp. I really like the 5 speed auto in my Honda so I had it rebuilt. Was it 4 times the cost of rebuilding the 3 speed in my 98 caravan? Sure But I received the benefit of driving a car with a much better transmission.
If you look at the prices of gear from the 50s, 60s, and 70s and adjust for inflation there was nothing as inexpensive as what we now have for options. The side effect is that it is often cheaper to replace than repair, but do you want a known piece of gear repaired or buy another used amp ?

I think that’s all true, but to put it into perspective to the OP’s issue, comparing a $1.25 replacement switch to a multi-thousand dollar transmission rebuild isn’t that accurate. I think if we were to compare his issue to a car, it would be more like having to pay a car dealer $125/hour to replace a headlight bulb, and the dealer trying to say that only they are qualified to do it.

 

[Bertr]

Since I'm not in the $300 class d amp market, that's not something I deal with. When the module is replaced and the amp is serviced according to factory guidelines, you end up with an essentially new amp, so for example if it costs 1/2 of the used value of an amp to repair, that's still 1/2 of the cost of a replacement amp.

Besides, the number of class D module failures that I see in either the Genz Benz or Mesa products is so low that it's rarely an issue.

When you have an older tube amp, say an SVT just because that's an easy amp to relate to, when you need to re-tube the amp after say 10 years and it needs a transformer too, and it costs $600 to do the repair including the labor to be sure that there are no underlying problems, yet you can replace the amp with another for say $800... is it worth repairing or are you better off replacing it with another used SVT?

> is it worth repairing or are you better off replacing it with another used SVT?

Now, that is a tricky one for my tree-hugging heart Andy!
A used SVT would save some money AND avoid the environmental cost of remanufacturing, but... repairing would give 2 usable ones at a marginal (if it´s a specific available part) environmental cost.
Sooooo: If I have enough spare cash, I repair. If not, I replace with the used one.
(But I may be wrong....)