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Ali Express Bass Wow!
- Thread starter Greg Pruitt
- Start date
When you sell something with a logo that you have no license to use, that is called counterfeit, not a copy. It is pretty much as simple as that and as far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter how it is represented. Frankly, I am surprised that the admins have let this thread go on as long as it has.
The ethics side-discussion brings to mind those Talkbass posts by people proudly showing off their Squiers with replacement Fender headstock decals. "I only did it as a joke/because I enjoy looking at it more this way/so people will judge me on my playing and not my bass!" "But I'll never sell it!" "And if I do sell it, I'll tell the buyer that it's actually a Squier and make him promise never to mislead whoever he sells it to!" Et cetera.
By the way, pretty sure most of the Ali Express sellers would be happy to leave the headstock blank on any guitar you order. Many of them also say that they can work with you if you want to order a customized guitar. I once considered ordering a Fender Jaguar/Gibson EB-3 doubleneck guitar/bass. It would be hard to pass that off as a factory original.
By the way, pretty sure most of the Ali Express sellers would be happy to leave the headstock blank on any guitar you order. Many of them also say that they can work with you if you want to order a customized guitar. I once considered ordering a Fender Jaguar/Gibson EB-3 doubleneck guitar/bass. It would be hard to pass that off as a factory original.
Wait!
I *do* actually know someone who ordered a Modulus Quantum 5 rip from China that wasn't a Modulus but wasn't bad, per se. I haven't seen her for a while, so I'm going off memory.
Right off the bat, the paint job was crummy and kind of looked like a decal, but it arrived with chips here and there so it was "legit", I guess. I'm not 100% on exactly what work was needed out of the box. It definitely needed a decent preamp and it was buzzy on the board with fret ends that were scratchy and uneven. It wasn't comfortable in the conventional sense. Kind of a super light, awkward body that felt "off".
It wouldn't have taken much to make it okay, for what it's worth. Just okay. Too much needs to be sunk into them, tbh. The savings are short sighted.
I *do* actually know someone who ordered a Modulus Quantum 5 rip from China that wasn't a Modulus but wasn't bad, per se. I haven't seen her for a while, so I'm going off memory.
Right off the bat, the paint job was crummy and kind of looked like a decal, but it arrived with chips here and there so it was "legit", I guess. I'm not 100% on exactly what work was needed out of the box. It definitely needed a decent preamp and it was buzzy on the board with fret ends that were scratchy and uneven. It wasn't comfortable in the conventional sense. Kind of a super light, awkward body that felt "off".
It wouldn't have taken much to make it okay, for what it's worth. Just okay. Too much needs to be sunk into them, tbh. The savings are short sighted.
We have reviewed this thread.
There is a rule that forbids praising or promoting counterfeit and fake basses. We're close to breaking that rule in this thread, but since the discussion has focused on the negatives of buying parts basses in general and not knock off or counterfeits by name, the decision was made to leave this thread open.
However, if the thread trends that way then it will be closed and deleted. The same can be said for anyone who wants to turn this into a discussion of social issues in the countries where these basses are typically made or anyone who wants to try and be clever with any kind of political commentary.
Thank you to those who have kept this discussion on track and within the TalkBass rules you agreed to when you joined our forum.
-Mike
Thanks to the moderators for keeping the thread open.
My intent was never to promote copy/counterfeit goods, or the ethics thereof. I only wanted to discuss the opinions of those who have made purchases of these kinds instruments, and your thoughts on playability, fit-and-finish, tone quality, hardware, etc. of the instruments you purchases.
my guess and what I’ve heard is that a lot of these are made by workers or groups of workers in Chinese guitar factories who make these copies on the side as a sort of secondary stream of income with surplus parts, tools and materials from work or after hours. Like someone at a Chinese epiphone factory going home or staying late and making a quick extra 60 dollars with either rejected parts or their own lumber. One of the reasons that the bridge on the fake les Paul’s is an epiphone bridge and not just an imported American les Paul bridge is because this fact. I’d say they’re no more or less ethical than any other Chinese labor practices. Honestly it’s more like Uber for factory assembly workers to make side income, there’s plenty of parallels all over the world that make it maybe not as bad as the price suggests. Or like maybe it’s some guys having fun after work and making a buck off of it. Honestly a documentary on the chibson phenomenon would probably be incredibly interesting.
As for the ethics of stamping Gibson on the headstock or something. Slash’s les Paul was a fake les Paul made by an American luthier, and he did a damn good job of doing a copy of an early les Paul, down to the pickups even. You can’t blame the Chinese guitar factory worker for wanting to make a copy with the same sentiment behind it, maybe it’s not the most skilled guy in the plant, but you can’t blame the guy wanting to try! It’s sorta like a tribute, “eh look bill, I made a dang les Paul for 40 bucks.” The quality of a guys after work project is gonna be super variable just cause of his motivations, maybe he loves building copies and does a great job, maybe he’s behind on bills and he’s overworked and he’s just making as many as he can. China has an interesting attitude towards intellectual property and part of it comes down to a kind of pride where they know how for example iPhones are made and there’s iPhone factories in China, so they make bootleg iPhones that are pretty close to the same that are only available in China.
now the people buying the copies and selling them, different story entirely, demonic people. But most people buy them for the novelty not to get the 600 bucks a pop for a huge risk. I think the builders and buyers know this. If you spend 300 on a dhgate or Ali express guitar you have to be ok with losing that money to customs. Cause customs will destroy them, and customs definitely will check on an order of 20 150 dollar guitars. The delivery process is really slow for one import let alone 20 imports, and the revenue isn’t enough to make even 24 grand a year on. Trying to import that many guitars is a huge risk, and Gibson in particular gets pretty vicious about litigation even for people just buying one. Honestly I wish they’d have some sort of signature on them somewhere discreet like inside the electronics cavity that says it’s fake, which would solve the whole problem. Like the Chinese character for “tribute” and everyone could be happy.
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Of course we all use iPhones, Samsungs, TVs and all that other stuff made in China. Nobody says it's bad because it's made there. Sire basses were made there early on, too. It's a huge country. USA is a huge country, and China has almost 5x population. There's good factories and bad factories, good sellers and bad sellers. Sires were good because there were reputable people behind them (including Marcus Miller), there was a returns policy, there was a quality control, there was a brand trying to build a reputation based on quality and value for money.
Anyone can sell on AliExpress. I did sell on AliExpress, and it was the dropshipping thing - so I never saw the things I sold, the factory in China made them, slapped a sticker with my logo on the box and shipped the things worldwide. Most sellers on AliExpress do exactly that, most likely the seller of that bass as well. It took me minutes to set that all up, and returns were not viable, so I had to refund the thing fully every time there was something wrong. In the end, I didn't make much money, and if I wanted to, I would need to sell an even cheaper crap for a bigger margin. Good instruments builders are everywhere, and if there's many of them amongst 300 millions Americans, there's also many amongst 1.5 billion Chinese people. However, if someone only sells on AliExpress, I question their business motives. It's likely they main intention is not putting a quality product out and building themselves a brand as a luthier. There's a reason the China-made Sires became popular and many other China-made guitars didn't.
Let's say that bass is well built by someone who knows what they're doing. If it plays well and sounds good, with those boutique looks many desire, they could sell it directly for $500 and it would be a decent deal. But, there's probably a reason they ship on behalf of another person who never saw the product, and for below $400 including a worldwide shipping of something as big and heavy as a bass guitar, they both make a profit, taking into account that they probably have to refund 25% of the basses sold without having them returned. How much it likely cost to make that bass? $80? Maybe they don't refund the crappy ones, AliExpress won't force them to. Too many bad reviews, and they just move to another nickname/avatar, as they invested exactly zero minutes/dollars/thought into building a reputable brand.
Anyone can sell on AliExpress. I did sell on AliExpress, and it was the dropshipping thing - so I never saw the things I sold, the factory in China made them, slapped a sticker with my logo on the box and shipped the things worldwide. Most sellers on AliExpress do exactly that, most likely the seller of that bass as well. It took me minutes to set that all up, and returns were not viable, so I had to refund the thing fully every time there was something wrong. In the end, I didn't make much money, and if I wanted to, I would need to sell an even cheaper crap for a bigger margin. Good instruments builders are everywhere, and if there's many of them amongst 300 millions Americans, there's also many amongst 1.5 billion Chinese people. However, if someone only sells on AliExpress, I question their business motives. It's likely they main intention is not putting a quality product out and building themselves a brand as a luthier. There's a reason the China-made Sires became popular and many other China-made guitars didn't.
Let's say that bass is well built by someone who knows what they're doing. If it plays well and sounds good, with those boutique looks many desire, they could sell it directly for $500 and it would be a decent deal. But, there's probably a reason they ship on behalf of another person who never saw the product, and for below $400 including a worldwide shipping of something as big and heavy as a bass guitar, they both make a profit, taking into account that they probably have to refund 25% of the basses sold without having them returned. How much it likely cost to make that bass? $80? Maybe they don't refund the crappy ones, AliExpress won't force them to. Too many bad reviews, and they just move to another nickname/avatar, as they invested exactly zero minutes/dollars/thought into building a reputable brand.
songwriter21
I have an obsession for wood. The musical kind.
I stay away from all of these cheap instruments...don't trust the neck wood's reliability.
