All tube combo?

[scotch]

And then there's "Special pleading". i.e.
Psychics can never seem to produce their ESP claims when they're put under scientific scrutiny.

Special pleading lets you dump a wad load of money on some "real" amp then attempt to "Confirm" your purchase reasoning by making up some new claim about something can't be measurements, recorded and reproduced.

Maybe you have "Golden Ears" or "Golden Feel", I doubt it. You could of course, do something to prove it.

I naturally present my bias along with other listening tests, and players testing, and null testing that have confirmed modelers do the job. And they can do more. At much more affordable prices.

Check the market - much bigger market for modelers than tube combos. The major manufacturers and smart enough to archive their golden reference amps in modelers, and put their name brand on the box.

Reread what I posted. Your 'golden ears' argument is totally missing the point. And, YOU originally posted that there was "...no market...". At least in this last post you concede that there IS a market (albeit smaller, which I agree with).

The 'market' doesn't inform what I use anywhere near what my ears and experience do. Admittedly, my experience is weighted much more towards playing through gear - not measuring it. I'm a musician, not an engineer. For some reason me and my professional bass playing colleagues still use all tube gear regularly (along with the latest digital and digital modelling technology). Are we doing something wrong?

 

[JimmyM]

yes you are, scotch. seamonkey has read several books, so he knows.

 

[greenboy]

yes you are, scotch. seamonkey has read several books, so he knows.

Actually he's pretty smart too. I don't understand why he is drawn to this unholy crusade though: tube/transformer type amplification works and is a lot of fun and sounds a lot of different kinds of good. Why would it need to be supplanted across the board? And why would someone invest so much in that (somewhat rhetorical on that last one).

Me, I wish I could justify the time to get back into tube amps at a deeper level than way back when I merely used tubes but didn't mess around beyond a little tube rolling. I've been real close a number of times into doing a biamped tube fEarful system after hearing a couple of heads into my 15/6. I've liked the idea of the bridge-straddling Peavey VB-3 too, and the idea of all-tube power amps.

Am I needing a double-blind test? I think not. I just want to hear the tubes and have fun with them.

 

[Bassman822]

I had a Fender Studiobass back in the early 80s. Great amp on paper (200w rms, EV 15, about 100 lbs). Unfortunatley, the enclosure wasnt large enough for the speaker, and the amp never was able go get decent bottom end.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

I naturally present my bias along with other listening tests, and players testing, and null testing that have confirmed modelers do the job. And they can do more. At much more affordable prices.

The issue, however, comes down to personal preference. Perhaps people do have to justify their purchases after the fact. Sure, a large number of players may not be able to tell the difference between a modeler and the real deal; I have a background in social science and understand how inferential statistics work, so I can respect that. However, there will always be outliers, and those are the people who, whether it's objective reality or is just in their heads, may like an actual tube amp rather than a modeler.

My guitar player has a Line 6 combo, and it's a cool sounding amp. Is there a giant tonal difference between his Line 6 and his Mesa that the Line 6 is attempting to replicate? To his ears and my ears, there is a huge qualitative difference, which is why 99% of our gigs he either has his Mesa or VHT. Others may not hear the difference, and that's fine.

 

[GregC]

Don't feed the seamonkey.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Damn it, you should have warned me before hand, Greg.

 

[scotch]

Don't feed the seamonkey.

Lesson learned.

 

[JimmyM]

The issue, however, comes down to personal preference. Perhaps people do have to justify their purchases after the fact. Sure, a large number of players may not be able to tell the difference between a modeler and the real deal; I have a background in social science and understand how inferential statistics work, so I can respect that. However, there will always be outliers, and those are the people who, whether it's objective reality or is just in their heads, may like an actual tube amp rather than a modeler.

My guitar player has a Line 6 combo, and it's a cool sounding amp. Is there a giant tonal difference between his Line 6 and his Mesa that the Line 6 is attempting to replicate? To his ears and my ears, there is a huge qualitative difference, which is why 99% of our gigs he either has his Mesa or VHT. Others may not hear the difference, and that's fine.

exactly. live and let live. stop trying to save the world from tubes. ain't gonna happen.

 

[thobbinghotrod]

You can find Bassman Ten's pretty easily, they made enough of them. They're 50 to 70 watts.
Plus One to the Ampeg B100R, solid state but sure sound good,
Have you looked into making something from a kit?

 

[GregC]

Damn it, you should have warned me before hand, Greg.

Sorry.

 

[seamonkey]

Don't feed the seamonkey.

Is that all you've got?

People do this when they can't think of any reasonable counterpoint.

 

[seamonkey]

The issue, however, comes down to personal preference.

The personal preference in this case is the same. If you like tube sound you play tube sound. Some here just don't believe there are many ways to achieve it. Even the SVT standard heavy rockers push is Not an all tube path. There are clipping diodes. The modelers don't really care, they just reproduce the sound. Diodes and all.

I like tube sound (compression and distortion) when it's appropriate. It's a familiar sound and some songs and band leaders want it. When I play Jazz I have to play upright, There I don't even think it's the sound I think it's the look.

 

[seamonkey]

Actually he's pretty smart too. I don't understand why he is drawn to this unholy crusade though: tube/transformer type amplification works and is a lot of fun and sounds a lot of different kinds of good. Why would it need to be supplanted across the board? And why would someone invest so much in that (somewhat rhetorical on that last one).

Me, I wish I could justify the time to get back into tube amps at a deeper level than way back when I merely used tubes but didn't mess around beyond a little tube rolling. I've been real close a number of times into doing a biamped tube fEarful system after hearing a couple of heads into my 15/6. I've liked the idea of the bridge-straddling Peavey VB-3 too, and the idea of all-tube power amps.

Am I needing a double-blind test? I think not. I just want to hear the tubes and have fun with them.

Thanks, I think.
To me the "tube" has been marketed as some magic sound. So I present an alternate opinion that musicians can evaluate the alternatives. Many people are buying on the internet and not trying before buying. Now I think they should try things out in real life and fall for the internet lore or marketing hype. They're not going to bother with internet pricing so attractive, so at least they should know that there are alternatives. It's cheaper to try and ship a lower cost modeler to see if works out. Heavy objects they always charge a premium for.

There are no low cost lower power tube combo's because there is no market for them, Or it's just impossible to make them, Or maybe what's out there already fits the bill.

 

[coreyfyfe]

People do this when they can't think of any reasonable counterpoint.

People do this when you show up to troll tube threads. We get it, you don't care for tubes and don't understand those of us who do. Keep yourself out of tube threads and save us all the headache.

 

[JimmyM]

hmmm...in what part of the svt are there clipping diodes? because i've used ampeg tube amps for decades and i don't recall a single one with clipping diodes.

edit: not that i'd know clipping diodes from a hole in the ground

 

[Slowgypsy]

Reminder... don't feed the seamonkey....

 

[tehbassist]

When I play Jazz I have to play upright, There I don't even think it's the sound I think it's the look.

And you sir, have just lost any and and all credibility from my perspective. If you think that you're playing upright because of the look and not the sound how can you make any judgments on something as complex as amplifier technologies.

I know you're not saying you can't tell the sounds of the two instruments apart, but if you can't see the importance of the different sounds, then how can we take your word on the importance of different sounds of amplifiers.

 

[seamonkey]

People do this when you show up to troll tube threads. We get it, you don't care for tubes and don't understand those of us who do. Keep yourself out of tube threads and save us all the headache.

Look back - I didn't take the thread off topic.
Or
Show me the low cost low power bass heads the OP wants.

I'll continue to present alternative approaches.

 

[JimmyM]

Reminder... don't feed the seamonkey....

i'm not feeding him...i'm just correcting his bs.

listen, i use modeling all the time. i can't be waking up my wife just so i can mic a tube amp so i use modeling most of the time for my home recordings. it's very good and continues to get better.

but the only people who say they can be directly substituted for tube amps are either:

1. those who don't like tube amps but want the sound of a certain tube amp occasionally

2. those who have never used a tube amp onstage with a band

seamonkey clearly falls into category 2. if he had, he would have some respect for what they do and how they do it, instead of mistakenly reducing everything to waveforms that don't tell the whole story, like the interaction of tubes at different volumes, or the way the dynamic range is so much more alive and responsive than modelers.

so instead of feeding the seamonkey, i just try to sort through the bs he spews so those who are thinking of trying tube amps don't get the wrong picture about modeling. modeling is great, but it's only been great for 3-4 years, and as great as it is, there's still a long way to go before it's truly as good as tubes in every way.