Double Bass Almost 3 years..zero to none result..any help?

[Caramello]

Hello everyone,

This is my first time writing here. I didn’t really want to, because it’s such a common issue and so much has already been written about it..but here I am anyway.

I’ve been playing double bass since around mid-2023, but I feel like I haven’t made any progress. Whether with the bow or pizzicato, I’m still stuck in half and first position. That wouldn’t necessarily be a problem in itself, but the issue is that I can barely play in tune, and after about 15 minutes my left arm is completely done. It literally hurts.

I’ve tried everything: I’ve read every kind of advice, watched countless videos about posture and relaxation… but still nothing changes. I even had a teacher, but he couldn’t offer any solution to my problem, which apparently is that I’m just too tense.
Literally i can’t grasp the concept of using the big muscles to play, i don’t think i am so stupid and yet, i squeeze the neck like a lemon, and if i don’t do it i can’t made any sound, barely a string rattle!

And you probably know this feeling; I also can’t breathe normally while playing. I hold my breath or breathe irregularly.

But I can’t find a proper solution, and I’m starting to get frustrated. I love this instrument. I can barely play it and I know it’s hard, I’m not in a rush… but three years with zero results is a lot, and I’m starting to lose my passion.

Have any of you ever been in this situation and found something that helped you get out of it?

Any help is literally welcome. I’ve lurked every corner of this forum (I think), watched every video… honestly, I feel drained.


.

 

[AGCurry]

I have to ask: How high are the nut slots of your bass? If they're too high, it takes more force to play in half and first positions, and it's harder to play in tune there.

 

[SteveCS]

I’ve been playing double bass since around mid-2023, but I feel like I haven’t made any progress. Whether with the bow or pizzicato, I’m still stuck in half and first position.

After 7 years of 'cello from 8 - 15, my daughter switched to double-bass and studied with the best until completing her performance degree from the Royal Academy of Music this year at age 23. That's 15 years of bowed strings under top class instruction. 2½ years without a hands-on double-bass teacher is nothing.

 

[Tom Lane]

You sound like you have an unusual case but I think with the proper coaching you might be curable. Maybe you could try a double bass teacher who is familiar with the Alexander Technique? As I understand it, it focuses on making movement efficient. Here's a link. HTHs!

 

[Caramello]

I have to ask: How high are the nut slots of your bass? If they're too high, it takes more force to play in half and first positions, and it's harder to play in tune there.

It doesn’t look so bad, first bass was much much higher

 

[Caramello]

After 7 years of 'cello from 8 - 15, my daughter switched to double-bass and studied with the best until completing her performance degree from the Royal Academy of Music this year at age 23. That's 15 years of bowed strings under top class instruction. 2½ years without a hands-on double-bass teacher is nothing.

First of all, congrats to your daughter, must be a proud dad!

I know it is nothing, and i had a teacher for 1 year and half, but i felt i was having more results while studying alone, and i felt he could not understand my issue.

Truth is, it is very very difficult to find a teacher where i live, in fact apparently he is the only one available

 

[AGCurry]

It doesn’t look so bad, first bass was much much higher

Yes, that looks okay.

I'm not sure what I can suggest, but here are some ideas...

Being "stuck in half and first position" sounds odd to me. Are you following a standard pedagogy? Any standard pedagogy will have you playing two-octave scales early on, and you must go higher on the neck to do that. You might want to stop worrying so much about those low notes and instead concentrate on reaching the tops of the scales in tune.

Are you trying to play simple tunes? Try "Ash Grove," simply looking for a nice sound. Think about a beautiful sound rather than the mechanics of right-hand-left-hand. Get the nicest sound you can with open strings at the start of practices.

The best musicians make it look easy. Try practicing in front of a mirror and try to look the way you think you should. Smile. It can help.

Sing along with your playing. That can help your breathing.

 

[garrett2]

Are you standing or sitting? If you are standing perhaps switch to sitting?

 

[crd]

Hello everyone,

This is my first time writing here. I didn’t really want to, because it’s such a common issue and so much has already been written about it..but here I am anyway.

I’ve been playing double bass since around mid-2023, but I feel like I haven’t made any progress. Whether with the bow or pizzicato, I’m still stuck in half and first position. That wouldn’t necessarily be a problem in itself, but the issue is that I can barely play in tune, and after about 15 minutes my left arm is completely done. It literally hurts.

I’ve tried everything: I’ve read every kind of advice, watched countless videos about posture and relaxation… but still nothing changes. I even had a teacher, but he couldn’t offer any solution to my problem, which apparently is that I’m just too tense.
Literally i can’t grasp the concept of using the big muscles to play, i don’t think i am so stupid and yet, i squeeze the neck like a lemon, and if i don’t do it i can’t made any sound, barely a string rattle!

And you probably know this feeling; I also can’t breathe normally while playing. I hold my breath or breathe irregularly.

But I can’t find a proper solution, and I’m starting to get frustrated. I love this instrument. I can barely play it and I know it’s hard, I’m not in a rush… but three years with zero results is a lot, and I’m starting to lose my passion.

Have any of you ever been in this situation and found something that helped you get out of it?

Any help is literally welcome. I’ve lurked every corner of this forum (I think), watched every video… honestly, I feel drained.


.

Find a teacher who will go through the Rabbath/Vance method with you. Don't give up on having a teacher.

 

[brianrost]

I even had a teacher, but he couldn’t offer any solution to my problem, which apparently is that I’m just too tense.
I squeeze the neck like a lemon

Squeezing the neck is not what you should be doing. It’s the weight of your arm pulling down that does most of the work. You need to be much more relaxed, your teacher was correct.

I can leave my left hand floating rather than touching the back of the neck and I can still fret notes. It’s easier if I do anchor the thumb, but it illustrates that there’s no need to use your hand muscles to squeeze the neck. In this photo, my palm isn’t in contact with neck either.

 

[bassically_eli]

I would try another teacher. Where are you located? Someone on here will be able to help you find someone.

You might also look into something called the Alexander Technique and look for an instructor in that.

Ultimately, I think the trick for someone as tense as you describe yourself is to trick yourself into having fun while playing. You should find exercises or make up games that are fun to do. That will get your mind off of “dont be tense. Dont be tense. Stop being tense damn it!”

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Lee Moses]

I would second--or fourth--the previous suggestion to find another teacher. It sounds clear that the first teacher was not right for you. Find someone who is willing to spend time working on your issues and is capable of solving them.

Also, tension can be helped by limiting the amount of things you are working on at one time. If you are having to think about the notes on a page, bow speed, placement, weight, intonation, etc., etc., it tends to add to the tension. Back off, and work on one thing at a time. Just work on producing a beautiful sound at first, then add one thing to it.

If squeezing the neck is a problem, do some playing without your thumb touching the neck.

Just a few suggestions. I'm cheering for you, man!

 

[Eli Brockway]

Truth is, it is very very difficult to find a teacher where i live, in fact apparently he is the only one available

About where do you live? If you don't want to give anything more than rough distance to the nearest large city that should still be enough for one of the folks here on TB to be able to help find someone that may be available that you might not have found out yet.

 

[JamesGrant]

You’ve asked for help - which unlocks new possibilities. If it’s a fundamental issue of ‘fretting’ technique then you may benefit from an experienced person who is good at demonstrating and guiding on that one issue and so the pool of ‘teachers’ becomes much larger. A few sessions with the right person to move you forward might make a huge difference. You may try going to a gig and chatting with the double bass player, or finding a youth orchestra (who hopefully live near where they perform!) and talking to their contrabass/doublebass player. These are the people who may not consider themselves teachers but will probably do paid 1-to-1 sessions once they know what your objective is.

If you can fret well then you can hone intonation. But whilst you’re squeezing the juices out of your own arm then intonation isn’t going to be something achievable.
Like many of these things, it may seem like a lot, but it’s often just one or two things that need changing which allows a whole load more improvement and enjoyment to come.

 

[SteveCS]

First of all, congrats to your daughter, must be a proud dad!

I know it is nothing, and i had a teacher for 1 year and half, but i felt i was having more results while studying alone, and i felt he could not understand my issue.

Truth is, it is very very difficult to find a teacher where i live, in fact apparently he is the only one available

Thank you - a lot of stars aligned to make that happen, and for that we are eternally grateful! Our county has a youth music programme (Hampshire Hub) that picked her up early and sponsored a scholarship for her. This led to a place in the youth orchestra (Principal Cello) and funded lessons, then a placement at a college that has top teachers, mainly professional players, which is when she fully switched to double bass. That college (Peter Symonds) has close ties to the UK conservatoires, including RAM. We couldn't have done any of this without the kick-start from Hampshire. Having seen the impact a good teacher has, I can't do anything but recommend finding someone you can work with, even if just for a short while. Good luck!!

 

[Mikich]

Playing in front of a mirror is very good advice. Getting things to look good will help get it to sound good.
If you can find a chin-up bar or something like it to hang from, do that and you will see that it’s not necessary to grip tightly to hang.
Think of the shape from your left shoulder to your fingertips being like the curve of a nautilus shell. Also imagine being at a crowded party and gently pulling someone next to you close in order to whisper a secret in their ear.
Let your shoulders relax and drop. Keep breathing
The photo above with the thumb off the back of the neck is a good guide
Vance and Suzuki books are good. They start the player at the heel of the neck where the strings have more give. Half position can be tiring for anyone for extended periods.
Progress on a musical instrument is rarely obvious. Especially to the player. At least on the bass. Be patient.
Try sitting as well as standing

I watch videos on car repair. Very helpful to a point. A repair video that lasts 20 minutes is probably several hours for me irl.

All the above suggestions were excellent. I don’t think I’ve contradicted any of them.

Arco is easier on the left hand than pizzicato

You can try lower tension strings. Metal.

Be sure that the your bow hair is decent and experiment with rosin a little. I like sticky rosin that I can smell after putting it on the bow.

Intonation is more journey than destination.

Keep the instrument accessible so that it can be played easily for short periods. Standing it out of the bag in a corner is good. There are stands that can be purchased also or you can make one out of two by six boards. I like leaning it in a corner with the top facing the corner.

Last but not least, exercise your forearms. Those are the muscles that work the fingers

 

[jj.833]

As a teacher to beginners (though my teaching time counts just a few years), I can see how hard it can be for quite many people to just perform the basic moves. The trouble, generally, is multitasking - if you focus too hard on intonation, you will lose control of your posture, if you focus on bow, you will lose control of your left thumb, etc. The key, as can be seen in any good progressive book, is to follow simple steps slowly and not to move on to harder stuff before you can play the simpler excersises fluently and with physical ease. However, how do you know you play with physical ease, and not just convince yourself you already do so? How do you measure you play the excersise good enough? In that matter, a teacher is very valuable, because all mistakes can be seen or heard way easier for the observing person, and solution can be showed quickly. My experience is that even the most talented person tends to move on too quickly, leaving too many usloved technical problems on the backburner.

My opinion is that if you are not standing right, you can't play right. I would perhaps advice to focus on posture more than on intonation, at least for a time. After you finish your practise session - say 15 minutes - you should not be physically tired. But even with teacher, it could take years to really understand. I don't think the internet wisdom stresses this one fact enough.

Whatever you do, I recommend to follow a progressive book, that starts simple. Simpler the better: Sassmannshaus Early Start is a kid's book, but very well written. And if you are already bored of the standard 'always in the lowest register' way, you might try George Vance. You can find whole Vance recorded on youtube, that might help a self learner.

Record yourself occasionally and listen back. It is quite possible that you just feel you play bad, because you know and hear more than you did at the start. If you had a recording, you can compare.

 

[garrett2]

I want to echo this last comment. The most important thing is position. That's the necessary condition of playing without stress and everything else. But, you can't really determine the position if you don't know what it feels like. And you can't know what it feels like if you can't get into it. The best way to understand it is -- if you are standing -- to work on getting the bass to rest on your body without holding it up with your hands. But even here a teacher is really essential.

 

[Sam Sherry]

Hello everyone,

This is my first time writing here. I didn’t really want to, because it’s such a common issue and so much has already been written about it..but here I am anyway.

Thank you for writing.

I’ve been playing double bass since around mid-2023, but I feel like I haven’t made any progress. Whether with the bow or pizzicato, I’m still stuck in half and first position. That wouldn’t necessarily be a problem in itself, but the issue is that I can barely play in tune, and after about 15 minutes my left arm is completely done. It literally hurts.

Through nothing except good luck I began playing the bass using the Karr / Tolo approach rather than the traditional Czech method.
I am deeply unworthy to speak for Gary Karr but my hands are on the keyboard. Please excuse every error, misunderstanding and misstatement.

That said and deeply meant, the gist of Gary Karr's philosophy was that everyone has areas and aspects of bass-playing which come naturally easier and others which do not come as easily. Moving around the entire bass from day one lets you find out what comes naturally for you and what you need to work harder on.

Anyone who spent a minute with Gary Karr knows that his general approach to life was to accentuate the positive. Even so, I believe that having worked with hundreds of students over several decades he recognized that "half position" and "first position" are not usually the easiest places for most people to play. It's natural for many beginners to assume that the traditional Czech course of study starts with the easy stuff so the later stuff must be harder. That is usually incorrect, in whole or in part.

Consider taking a brief break from Szimandl. Find some videos of Gary's notorious "Vomit" and "expanding scale" exercises. In other words, move around -- you're probably more skilled than you think.

On another point, I think that joining an orchestra or band is the fastest way to make progress. It puts all that technical work in perspective and adds to the Global Gross Joy Quotient.

Lastly, yes, a direct relationship an inspiring teacher helps almost everybody almost all the time.

All the best with your quest.

 

[JazznFunk]

Squeezing the neck is not what you should be doing. It’s the weight of your arm pulling down that does most of the work. You need to be much more relaxed, your teacher was correct.

I can leave my left hand floating rather than touching the back of the neck and I can still fret notes. It’s easier if I do anchor the thumb, but it illustrates that there’s no need to use your hand muscles to squeeze the neck. In this photo, my palm isn’t in contact with neck either.

View attachment 7385635

This. All day, this. I'd venture that most upright players who complain about lack of left hand dexterity or RSIs simply grip the neck too tight. I always tell people they should be able to come up behind me and pull my thumb off the neck at most any point while I'm playing. The same is true on electric.