Double Bass Almost 3 years..zero to none result..any help?

[turf3]

Well, for players in a standing position, the weight of the arm just pulls the hand down toward the floor.

The truth is that in lower positions (closer to the nut), you can try to use the large muscles of your upper back and shoulder to pull the strig back against the fingerboard, but that's limited, otherwise the top of the thing waves around and if you persist the tip of the end pin will gradually skate away from you. In higher positions, the pull from those big muscles is countered by the upper bout of the bass against your abdomen, so using them makes perfect sense.

The key is not to "use no squeezing action" - if you draw a free body diagram of the forces involved in half position, you'll quickly see that's impossible - but to use ONLY as much force as you need and NO more. Yes, those big muscles will be engaged, but especially in low positions, so will be the thumb - but ONLY to the extent needed and NO more.

People always rabbit on about "play without tension" - but of course, if you played with ZERO tension, your knees would collapse, you'd fall to the floor, the bass would fall on the floor, breaking off the neck, and then where would you be? No, the correct formulation is "play with ONLY as much tension as needed and no more, and ONLY where you need it."

The fact that OP is finding himself holding his breath while playing is, right there, a clear indication that there's just way too much muscle tension in the whole body and in the whole way of addressing the bass.

My recommendation would be LONG TONES. Just focus on playing ONE NOTE, downbow, upbow, downbow, upbow, and experiment within yourself to find where you've got excess tension and where you're applying excessive force. Everything should feel "alert but relaxed", not tight. Shoulders, arms, back, fingers - just exert exactly the minimum force needed to prevent falling down or the bass falling down or dropping the bow.

 

[bass player 53]

I will offer an alternative, based on my own experience (I’m 68). I started out on bass guitar in middle school, for a few years, before switching to double bass. This allowed me to ‘develop’ the muscles and tendons used to play the bass. My bass guitar had the middle of the road setup. I plowed through the Simandl bass method in order to learn the notes and shifts up and down the neck and not worry about the bow.
I also played in a variety of rock and
age appropriate jazz ensembles.
You can try this, with or without a teacher for a while, and see if your left
hand and arm can develop a bit without
pain and discomfort. If you are able to do this, it’s possible to move on to the double bass. If not, you will have to address a more serious physical problem or condition.

I have edited my comment to say that if you enjoy the bass guitar, you can try a fretless version as well. There are many bass guitars that come very close to a double bass sound, and are found in a wide variety of genres.

 

[JazznFunk]

Well, for players in a standing position, the weight of the arm just pulls the hand down toward the floor.

The truth is that in lower positions (closer to the nut), you can try to use the large muscles of your upper back and shoulder to pull the strig back against the fingerboard, but that's limited, otherwise the top of the thing waves around and if you persist the tip of the end pin will gradually skate away from you. In higher positions, the pull from those big muscles is countered by the upper bout of the bass against your abdomen, so using them makes perfect sense.

The fact that OP is finding himself holding his breath while playing is, right there, a clear indication that there's just way too much muscle tension in the whole body and in the whole way of addressing the bass.

My recommendation would be LONG TONES. Just focus on playing ONE NOTE, downbow, upbow, downbow, upbow, and experiment within yourself to find where you've got excess tension and where you're applying excessive force. Everything should feel "alert but relaxed", not tight. Shoulders, arms, back, fingers - just exert exactly the minimum force needed to prevent falling down or the bass falling down or dropping the bow.

The 'top of the thing' should never wave around even if you are using your whole arm/shoulder to generate most of the pulling force with the left hand. If it does, you might have an issue with the height the instrument is set at. Your body should always be supporting and balancing the bass even if your hands are not on it, with the upper bout centered squarely in your chest/stomach. One of my early teachers had me stand in playing position, and place the bass at the proper playing angle. It might move a little bit left or right for sure, but it should ideally be balanced to the point where you are not having to hold the bass in place, and it should stay there for the most part, using your core/upper body to rebalance in the moment. Not having that balance can for sure can cause excess tension/motion. It's an ergonomic issue most definitely. Then, you can place your left and right hands where they need to be and play with fluidity. YMMV.

I think 'tension' is the wrong word in some cases. If one's body/ergonomics are in proper balance, then tension isn't an issue. You can stand, if your posture is correct, without any 'tension' in your legs/thighs/butt area. Rooting your feet properly so that you aren't on your toes or heels to any extreme degree usually eliminates a lot of that, IME. That's something that's echoed in the Alexander Technique if memory serves.

Agreed that holding one's breath is not good for maintaining fluidity and relaxation at all.

 

[JazznFunk]

I will offer an alternative, based on my own experience (I’m 68). I started out on bass guitar in middle school, for a few years, before switching to double bass. This allowed me to ‘develop’ the muscles and tendons used to play the bass. My bass guitar had the middle of the road setup. I plowed through the Simandl bass method in order to learn the notes and shifts up and down the neck and not worry about the bow.

I have edited my comment to say that if you enjoy the bass guitar, you can try a fretless version as well. There are many bass guitars that come very close to a double bass sound, and are found in a wide variety of genres.

I had a similar route. I had about 3 years on electric (fretless mostly) before starting upright bass. There's no substitute for getting the physical strength together than what you get from hours in the shed on upright, but it goes a long way to getting you started (and getting your intonation together) coming from electric - fretless especially.

 

[Jazzdogg]

A good teacher will be able to see your technique and provide feedback on your posture, body mechanics, etc.

A good teacher may be available via the internet; with today's video technology, it's possible to provide some of the feedback you desire without necessarily receiving lessons in person.

A good teacher may not be the one who plays the best or knows the most; it will be the person from whom you are most willing to accept criticism.

Good luck!

 

[Huy Nguyen]

It’s impossible to tell what’s going on without some clear video of the OPs playing. We’d need to see how he’s standing, how the bass is positioned, how high are the elbows up, how the fingers are positioned, on and on.

 

[turf3]

The 'top of the thing' should never wave around even if you are using your whole arm/shoulder to generate most of the pulling force with the left hand. If it does, you might have an issue with the height the instrument is set at. Your body should always be supporting and balancing the bass even if your hands are not on it, with the upper bout centered squarely in your chest/stomach. One of my early teachers had me stand in playing position, and place the bass at the proper playing angle. It might move a little bit left or right for sure, but it should ideally be balanced to the point where you are not having to hold the bass in place, and it should stay there for the most part, using your core/upper body to rebalance in the moment. Not having that balance can for sure can cause excess tension/motion. It's an ergonomic issue most definitely. Then, you can place your left and right hands where they need to be and play with fluidity. YMMV.
...

Well, let's think about that a bit.

Keeping in mind that I'm talking about playing in a standing position.

When I finger the bass in low positions, a force is applied to the string to press it against the fingerboard. The direction of this force is pretty much perpendicular to the fingerboard, thus approximately parallel to the floor. Not exactly, of course, because the bass is tilted back. But a very large component of the force is horizontal. The vertical component can be disregarded for this discussion, because it's fairly small, and it's downward, and it's effectively resisted by the end pin pressing down on the floor.

Now let's assume I'm lifting my thumb off the back of the neck, zero force coming from my thumb to counteract the fingering force on the string.

There are two other places where the bass contacts something that's not the bass. One of them is my abdomen where it touches the upper bout of the bass the other's the floor where the end pin rests on the floor. Each of the three points where force is/can be applied to the bass is at a different height from the floor. My finger is pushing the string down at say 65 inches, my abdomen is contacting the upper bout of the bass at say 40 inches, and of course the end pin contacts the floor at 0 inches. None of these points of contact can effectively keep the bass from turning, so they all three have to be lined up and the forces (looking down from above) in line, or the bass will twist about its axis, which it doesn't.

It should be apparent, then, that if my fingers are pulling "back" on the string, my gut will be pushing "forward" on the upper bout, and the friction of the end pin rubber piece on the floor will be pulling "back", so that alll the forces and moments on the bass are balanced and it neither goes flying away from me, or back through me, or spins around its axis.

Again, right now as we discuss this, the left thumb's lifted off the back of the neck.

Now maybe your abdomen is rock hard, and when something pushes against it with 5 or 10 pound of force, your stance is so solid and rigid that it yieldeth not a jot or tittle, in which case the top end of your bass won't move a lick when your fingers press back against the strings. In my case, though, everyting's kind of soft and yielding down there, so when I pull back with my hand to finger a note, my gut yields a bit. The end pin (I hope) does NOT move on the floor, so if my gut yields a bit, that means the bass sinks into it a bit, and the top end of the bass moves back. Then I lift up on the string to make a small shift - there's less force on the strings, my gut "un-yields" a bit, the upper bout of the bass moves forward, the scroll moves forward more, all pivoting on the end pin which (I hope) isn't sliding on the floor. The top of the thing waves around.

So what really happens, when actually playing the bass, (we've allowed the player to use the thumb again, now) not just doing an exercise to try to prove a point, is that the force pressing down on the string is shared between the big muscles of the upper back and shoulders, and the curling muscles of the fingers in your forearm, linked to your fingers by tendons. And those forces are counteracted, as before, by the reaction forces at the gut, at the end pin, and at the thumb, exerted by its powerful grasping muscles.

Obviously the higher up the fingerboard you go, it's possible (nay, preferred) for the thumb to contribute less of the reaction force that resists the fingering force; and the big muscles of the upper back contribute more. As the location of the fingers stopping the string approaches the height of the point where the bass contacts the abdomen, the amount of force needed from the thumb drops off a great deal, and of course when you get to the heel it's none, and when you get into thumb position the thumb converts over to applying string stopping force. But I will maintain that when actually playing the bass, the vast majority of notes played in low positions do, and have to, include some force from the thumb.

I'd dearly like to instrument someone's thumb with strain gauges and just see how much force they actually apply at each note, then compare it to the force required to push the string down. Just as a raw guess, I'd bet that in half position it's something like 90% of the stopping force for expert players. For beginners, though, it could easily be 300% or 1000% of the force needed to counteract the stopping force. In that case, of course, both the grasping muscles of the thumb, and the curling muscles of the fingers (located in the forearm) are exerting way more force than they need to, and of course the player's hand and forearm poop out in a matter of minutes.

So, I come back to what I've been saying:

Use as much force as you need to, to stop the string - BUT NO MORE. Once the string's down on the fingerboard and can't rise up when you play the note, any more force exerted on the string by the fingers and by the thumb on the back of the neck, is just being wasted and contributing to fatigue.

I don't think there's any harm in SAYING "use arm weight" as long as we realize it's an ANALOGY, that anatomy and Newton's laws don't actually work that way, and that the FEELING of "using arm weight" to push down the strings can be helpful to reduce overpressure.

 

[JazznFunk]

Use as much force as you need to, to stop the string - BUT NO MORE. Once the string's down on the fingerboard and can't rise up when you play the note, any more force exerted on the string by the fingers and by the thumb on the back of the neck, is just being wasted and contributing to fatigue.

I think we're getting into the weeds a bit here, but I agree with this part 100%. What I'm saying is that the things I share are the things which I've done in practice for 25 years with no RSI issues of any kind - and I stand as well when I play. As with most discussions of pedagogy and technique, it would take less work and probably be less confusing/semi-contradictory if we could see vs using words what we're discussing.... and I don't have my bass or a suitable camera setup close by to document my end of things.

Lots of unknowns with the OP's situation in terms of bass height, types of strings, string height, existing technique, etc. It's worth noting that the concept of the bass 'balancing' with no hands on it against the body is also reflected in Michael Moore's Bass Method book that I have studied for years as well. YMMV.

 

[logdrum]

I hope things turn out better

But sometimes, we are just not cut out for something and we just have to roll with that. You may interpret this as rude but I've learned that in taking hobbies and projects all my life. It's totally okay to drop some activities and move on specially if physical pain is involved.

 

[Caramello]

Well thanks everybody for all your answers.. I see there is a lot to read so I will do and try to reply to some points that may be helpful for this discussion and my case.
Thnaks in advance, tomorrow (here in Italy is evening!) I'll reply to your generous comments and advice!

 

[Caramello]

I hope things turn out better

But sometimes, we are just not cut out for something and we just have to roll with that. You may interpret this as rude but I've learned that in taking hobbies and projects all my life. It's totally okay to drop some activities and move on specially if physical pain is involved.

That is something I've thought to be honest..but hey? I do not have any disability so I am sure there is a workaround, therefore I am here to seek advice, even if my frustration is growing lately.
But I'll keep working, that's for sure!

 

[Stuart.C]

Your description sounds almost exactly like how I felt for a long time (years) when I first started.
here's what helped me.

regarding playing in tune:
I realized I had a bad ear. not tone deaf but close.
In ear training exercises (which I highly recommend) I'd get most wrong; even easy ones. And I never really learned anything by ear.

Eventually I realized you have to actually train your ear. you have to internalize the feeling of a 5th , a 3rd and so on... once you do you'll start to hear and correct when you are off. simple ear training exercises, and playing with a drone I found really helped.
play simple melodies that you really know: stuff like twinkle, or Christmas tunes. This helps to hear when it's right, and when its off.

Getting out of first position:
You have to just do it. it will take time and sound bad, but if you keep doing it. it will get better.
Venturing into thumb position is torturous to listen to. but it gets better with time.
playing simple melodies that force you up the neck is great.

Bass too hard to play:
Get a new bass. or at least an easy setup, low string height, less scoop, lower tension strings ...
prioritize ease over how you think it sounds.
I think people focus on sound way too much, when ease of play is more important for most people IMO.
This took me a long time too, I played on a bass with really deep scoop for way too long before I knew what scoop was.

Best of luck

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

Check out JQ's LH technique.

Canadian School of Double Bass 4ths Edition Package — Joel Quarrington

Both Book 1: Daily Studies and Book 2: Intervals Chords Arpeggios Scales. These are contained in a .zip folder. Download size approximately 70mb. Version 3.0 November 2025

joelquarrington.com

 

[logdrum]

That is something I've thought to be honest..but hey? I do not have any disability so I am sure there is a workaround, therefore I am here to seek advice, even if my frustration is growing lately.
But I'll keep working, that's for sure!

The forum is here to support . There will be a solution if you have the will

On a practical note, The arm weight trick I use is a firm cranberry between my thumb and the neck. Only of course if you are willing to do that , Remember, firm and probably do only a 3 string scale like F or Bb on the half position.

 

[AGCurry]

There are two other places where the bass contacts something that's not the bass. One of them is my abdomen where it touches the upper bout of the bass the other's the floor where the end pin rests on the floor. Each of the three points where force is/can be applied to the bass is at a different height from the floor. My finger is pushing the string down at say 65 inches, my abdomen is contacting the upper bout of the bass at say 40 inches, and of course the end pin contacts the floor at 0 inches. None of these points of contact can effectively keep the bass from turning, so they all three have to be lined up and the forces (looking down from above) in line, or the bass will twist about its axis, which it doesn't.

I think you left a contact point out... the bow, or the right hand.

 

[turf3]

I think you left a contact point out... the bow, or the right hand.

The bow isn't really a contact point that will restrain the bass in any useful way.

If you're playing pizz, the RH thumb hooked under the FB adds stability. But I'd prefer not to rely on that, choosing instead to do most of my serious posture/long tone/technical work with the bow.

 

[Caro]

Without seeing and hearing you play the bass I can't offer any suggestions about technique in general. Have I ever been in this situation and found something to get me out of it? Maybe. A good sounding well set up bass, a good teacher, thinking about and analyzing my technique in detail, practicing daily. If I were you I would start taking lessons in person with a good teacher that plays well and really knows the bass.

 

[Bruce Calin]

Without seeing and hearing you play the bass I can't offer any suggestions about technique in general. Have I ever been in this situation and found something to get me out of it? Maybe. A good sounding well set up bass, a good teacher, thinking about and analyzing my technique in detail, practicing daily. If I were you I would start taking lessons in person with a good teacher that plays well and really knows the bass.

As someone who took up the bass many years ago and has had essentially no formal training, my suggestion is to find a teacher who knows the bass and knows how to deal with whatever issues you have. I'm a teacher now myself and wish I would have known someone like me back then. I would have made much faster progress with much less frustration. I'm not talking about a string teacher or some other general music person. I mean a teacher who teaches the bass and really understands it and its issues.

 

[Don Hergert]

I'd append to Bruce's wise discussion above...

@Caramello, not all double bass teachers have enough knowledge, experience and wisdom to teach the track you're interested in... You may need to "audition" multiple teachers to find the right fit -- someone who can address your issues as well as address your desires.

Please don't give up, but please do search and find just the right teacher. You'll know when you have found that person, because you'll notice improvement pretty quickly.

We all wish you the best with this!

 

[Jay Corwin]

Hello everyone,

This is my first time writing here. I didn’t really want to, because it’s such a common issue and so much has already been written about it..but here I am anyway.

I’ve been playing double bass since around mid-2023, but I feel like I haven’t made any progress. Whether with the bow or pizzicato, I’m still stuck in half and first position. That wouldn’t necessarily be a problem in itself, but the issue is that I can barely play in tune, and after about 15 minutes my left arm is completely done. It literally hurts.

I’ve tried everything: I’ve read every kind of advice, watched countless videos about posture and relaxation… but still nothing changes. I even had a teacher, but he couldn’t offer any solution to my problem, which apparently is that I’m just too tense.
Literally i can’t grasp the concept of using the big muscles to play, i don’t think i am so stupid and yet, i squeeze the neck like a lemon, and if i don’t do it i can’t made any sound, barely a string rattle!

And you probably know this feeling; I also can’t breathe normally while playing. I hold my breath or breathe irregularly.

But I can’t find a proper solution, and I’m starting to get frustrated. I love this instrument. I can barely play it and I know it’s hard, I’m not in a rush… but three years with zero results is a lot, and I’m starting to lose my passion.

Have any of you ever been in this situation and found something that helped you get out of it?

Any help is literally welcome. I’ve lurked every corner of this forum (I think), watched every video… honestly, I feel drained.


.

From your post, it sounds to me like you have more mental block than physical.....or rather the former is contributing to the later.

As far as relaxation goes, have you ever tried meditation and breath work? It might sound a little new age wierdo to people, but you can train yourself how to breathe calm and controlled, and put the brakes on the anxiety ham fisting that's probably going on with some of your playing. Like bass playing, it requires repetition and discipline to gain control of.

I've used this type of stuff to train my brain to calm down and refocus, especially on gigs. It's hard to explain if you haven't been there before, but on gigs where I find myself either tensing up or just mind racing early in a set - I just focus back on my breathing for a minute and bring my head back into the game. I'm also into yoga and things like that in general that focus as much attention on mental clarity as they do keeping the body in shape.