Alternating Technique Question

[Chuckdesj]

I remember a video by Ariane Cap about alterning fingers and string crossing with some good exercices. Anybody got the link ?

 

[smtp4me]

I use alternating fingers when ascending up the strings (moving from E to A, A to D, etc...), and will sometimes use a raking motion when coming down (same finger moves down and plays next note). You've probably already heard the following, but once you find what works for you - practice slow and then speed up to normal tempo.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Hey guys.

I've improved so much at finger style over the past year. But one thing I still struggle with is this: say I'm playing 3 notes on one string. Let's say 3 notes on the E string. I start with my index finger, alternate to the middle, then finish on the index. When I go down to the A string, should I start with my middle since that's next in the alternating sequence? I always want to start on the index. It's especially bad when descending (like from the G string moving toward the E playing 3 notes per string). Is there an exercise to correct this if this is incorrect?

Also, after rests, I tend to go back to the finger I used before the rest.
Say it's a note (index), a rest, then a note. The final note I play with the index. I think my brain views the rest as where the middle should have been. Is this wrong? If so, is there an exercise to correct it? Thanks!

Not really a finger technique issue as a mental one, and not an issue unless you see it as one.
yes it make playing easier to not have the fingers trip over each other to play the strong beats or syncopation.
I play alternating 3 finger occasional style in that i use two fingers alternating and add a 3rd if needed, but it is sub-conscious use not a pre-determined use that i will do it.

12321232123212321232123212321232123212321232123212321232123 etc etc represents three fingers alternating (fore middle and ring lets say)

Now regardless on what finger you start on, the fingers follow the same pattern, what you do is apply a strong beat or a '1' to that moment.

Since music is not "even" you are going to have to accept that any finger should be able to play strong beats....or start a phrase/bar.

So the idea of always returning to the original strong finger is because we think and feel that way, not because of any physical technique.

OK lets assume you you three fingers alternating so Fore, Middle and Ring finger use.

So you start from the ring finger and play 123212321232 then all the even numbers are on middle finger and all the odd numbers are on the fore and ring fingers.
If you start from the fore finger then all the even numbers are on the middle finger and all the odd numbers are on the fore and ring fingers....its the same use.

Now if you start on the middle finger, it makes no difference if you move left to right or right to left as the odd numbers are on the middle finger and the even numbers are on the fore and ring fingers.


Regardless of use your fingers follow each other so look again at this;

123212321232123212321232123212321232123212321232123212321232123212321231232.

Now depending on where you start in this sequence you will get all the variations i talked about above.

You will get 1232 or 3212 or 2321 or 2123 without changing the order.

For you to assign a beat sub-division to a finger is a mental task first and a physical task second, sort it out in your mind and your fingers will follow....as we say "you play what you think".

I have a cool lesson i shot on this somewhere, if i can find it i will post it if you want something to help address the issue.

If you read music and want the notation PM me and i will forward it on....as i know i have that....its on my music stand as we speak.

[edit] I just noticed you are talking to fingers, its the same issue as using;

12121212121212121212 etc etc

It gives two of the same variables, again its where you mentally assign the strong beat, not what finger is playing it.

 

[gregouille23]

I try to alternate as much as possible, but it really depends of the song. Imagine you play steadily 4er/8th/16th notes, then alternating is best IMO. But in most songs, you will have starts and stops. So sometimes, I "reset" and go back to either index or middle finger. Bottom line, don't stress too much about it, just see what works for you.

 

[el murdoque]

Back in the day when I started, my first teacher forced me to train a pattern with three notes played on one string and the fourth on another, starting out on neighboring strings (upwards change the finger, downwards raking) and then expanding to octave jumps. This became second nature really fast. He expanded the left hand patterns to get more complicated so my focus went from the right hand to the left hand while the right hand did the job.

 

[brianrost]

If you really want to alternate 100%, do a simple triplet exercise on open strings (remember all we care about is the right hand) at a moderate tempo. Like this:

E string: I M I
A string: M I M
D sring: I M I
G string: M I M
and then back down (E A D G D A E A D G....)

Then try starting on the G sgtring and descending:

G: I M I
D: M I M
A: I M I
E: M I M
and then back up (G D A E A D G D A....)

Then try starting on any string and moving up and down the strings, etc.

If you want to go totally nuts, try the same thing but start the exercise on the middle finger instead of index.

Once you are comfortable at slow tempo, start playing at higher tempo and then move into scales, arepeggios and actual songs until it's second nature.

Personally, although I used to strictly alternate, one I took up DB where you do a lot of playing with just the index finger, I began to use that sometimes on certain lines. I don't even think about my right hand, I just play and move between index only and alternation without any thought. I have to look at my hand to see what is actually going on.

 

[James Collins]

For playing with two fingers (index and middle), I alternate when switching strings moving from lower to higher and either switch or use the same finger when moving from higher to lower.

For moving lower to higher: To focus on the right hand technique just mute the strings with your left hand. Practice by playing an alternating pattern with the right hand on the E string then move to the A string and do the same thing then move to the D, then repeat to the G.

For moving from higher to lower: Do the same thing as above but move from G to E. You should be able to string both of these together.

As for the patterns (i=index, m=middle):

Pattern 1:
E(i,m,i) A(i,m,i) D(i,m,i) G(i,m,i,m,i,m) D(m,i,m) A(m,i,m) E(m,i,m)
Pattern 2:
E(m,i,m) A(m,i,m) D(m,i,m) G(m,i,m,i,m,i) D(i,m,i) A(i,m,i) E(i,m,i)
Pattern 3:
E(i,m,i) A(i,m,i) D(i,m,i) G(i,m,i,m,i,m) D(i,m,i) A(i,m,i) E(i,m,i)
Pattern 4:
E(m,i,m) A(m,i,m) D(m,i,m) G(m,i,m,i,m,i) D(m,i,m) A(m,i,m) E(m,i,m)

Practice would be best with a metronome for something like this where you want the timing of the notes to be consistent. Set it to like 3/4 time and a relatively slow rate like 60 and speed up over days to a couple of weeks until you are doing it at maybe 120 or 150 bpm.

Also, you don't necessarily need to practice this for hours everyday. Maybe just make it a warm up exercise or practice each twice everyday or something. It will improve pretty quickly as you develop muscle memory. Then you can through your ring finger and thumb into your right hand practice.

 

[JRA]

Do you have any tips for rests? Is it correct to view the rest as a stroke that should have been and hence repeat the note before and after with the same finger, or is that wrong?

on a 3 note pattern with a rest in between you'd do (I) (rest) (middle)? I do (I) (rest -- for the middle that should have been there), (I). Is this worth correcting? Is speed the main problem with my method?

IMO: it's called a rest for a reason (don't play!). when you resume playing = what is natural for you/what works for you. of course certain passages/phrases could challenge that advice. but, that's why we practice!

Alternating is important, but you can also cause yourself unnecessary problems by overthinking it.

^

 

[JB820]

It definitely serves you in the future to be deliberate about good right hand technique. However, years down the road, I don’t think about it anymore. My Index finger is dominant and depending on speed, it will often double up. As soon as I need the efficiency, all the practice of technique from years ago kicks right back in. You never want to be hindered because you let yourself start by making bad habits.

One excercise I do often is just sitting and playing major scales with strict alternating technique. Start with 1 pick per note up the scale and back down, then 2 picks, then 3, and 4... and so on.

I sit and do this excercise with 3 finger technique.

 

[RedJag]

Hey guys.

I've improved so much at finger style over the past year. But one thing I still struggle with is this: say I'm playing 3 notes on one string. Let's say 3 notes on the E string. I start with my index finger, alternate to the middle, then finish on the index. When I go down to the A string, should I start with my middle since that's next in the alternating sequence? I always want to start on the index. It's especially bad when descending (like from the G string moving toward the E playing 3 notes per string). Is there an exercise to correct this if this is incorrect?

Also, after rests, I tend to go back to the finger I used before the rest.
Say it's a note (index), a rest, then a note. The final note I play with the index. I think my brain views the rest as where the middle should have been. Is this wrong? If so, is there an exercise to correct it? Thanks!

This video goes into that technique pretty well, recommend you watch it.

 

[Hounddog409]

Hey guys.

I've improved so much at finger style over the past year. But one thing I still struggle with is this: say I'm playing 3 notes on one string. Let's say 3 notes on the E string. I start with my index finger, alternate to the middle, then finish on the index. When I go down to the A string, should I start with my middle since that's next in the alternating sequence? I always want to start on the index. It's especially bad when descending (like from the G string moving toward the E playing 3 notes per string). Is there an exercise to correct this if this is incorrect?

Also, after rests, I tend to go back to the finger I used before the rest.
Say it's a note (index), a rest, then a note. The final note I play with the index. I think my brain views the rest as where the middle should have been. Is this wrong? If so, is there an exercise to correct it? Thanks!

Do whatever sounds and feels best. There is no right or wrong technique.

To tell you the truth, I have no clue what my right hand does. I do not even think about plucking fingers.

If you want to start with index, start with your index. Better yet, just play without giving thought to you right hand.

 

[basscapes]

I start with the middle finger and then alternate as needed.

Not sure if I picked this up from Geddy Lee (Rush) or Phil Swisher (2nd bass player, Corrosion of Conformity)! How whacked out is that?

Of course, after watching Les Claypool (Primus, Sausage) in the early days, as well as taking a year of classical guitar in high school, I also developed a unique flamenco strum that works too!

Having said that, I also use a pick as needed too!

Go with your gut. Keep what works, discard what doesn't. Don't worry!

And ALWAYS record your practicing (doesn't matter if it's with your I-phone or killer, multi-thousand dollar mikes)- you never know what you might create while learning!

 

[Wfrance3]

Jayme Lewis is on TB and has a video on YouTube that I came across this weekend. If you aren’t aware of Jayme, he’s one of the good guys. At any rate, the content of the video suggests that you “play” a rest. I never really looked at it that way before. It’s a subtle distinction...


Hope this helps!!

 

[Felken]

Strictly alternating is not a particularly good idea. The goal with your right hand in to not think about it. Do what feels comfortable and easy, and eventually you won't even think about your righy hand. It'll move and pick on its own.

 

[Felken]

I start with the middle finger and then alternate as needed.

Not sure if I picked this up from Geddy Lee (Rush) or Phil Swisher (2nd bass player, Corrosion of Conformity)! How whacked out is that?

Of course, after watching Les Claypool (Primus, Sausage) in the early days, as well as taking a year of classical guitar in high school, I also developed a unique flamenco strum that works too!

Same here. Strangely enough, I've developped a technique nearly identical to that of Geddy's wothout knowing of his weird flamenco thing. Pretty much all of my influence is from that man.

 

[basscapes]

Same here. Strangely enough, I've developped a technique nearly identical to that of Geddy's wothout knowing of his weird flamenco thing. Pretty much all of my influence is from that man.

Ironically, he got that flamenco thing from Claypool too!

 

[oldcatfish]

Hey guys. I've improved so much at finger style over the past year. But one thing I still struggle with is this: say I'm playing 3 notes on one string. Let's say 3 notes on the E string. I start with my index finger, alternate to the middle, then finish on the index. When I go down to the A string, should I start with my middle since that's next in the alternating sequence? I always want to start on the index. It's especially bad when descending (like from the G string moving toward the E playing 3 notes per string). Is there an exercise to correct this if this is incorrect? Also, after rests, I tend to go back to the finger I used before the rest. Say it's a note (index), a rest, then a note. The final note I play with the index. I think my brain views the rest as where the middle should have been. Is this wrong? If so, is there an exercise to correct it? Thanks!

 

[bloobass]

There seems to be some confusion about which hand we're talking about. I interpreted the original post to be about the plucking hand...
IMO being able to attack consistently with each finger is WAY more important that which finger you start with or if it feels natural to sometimes use the same finger from one string to the next. There comes a point that forcing your body to perform tasks that feel un-natural will be counter productive and frustrating. At that point you'd be better off incorporating multiple styles and techniques to accomplish your goals...not to mention more rewarding than beating your head against the wall because you can't pluck like player XYZ.

 

[oldcatfish]

Hey guys.

I've improved so much at finger style over the past year. But one thing I still struggle with is this: say I'm playing 3 notes on one string. Let's say 3 notes on the E string. I start with my index finger, alternate to the middle, then finish on the index. When I go down to the A string, should I start with my middle since that's next in the alternating sequence? I always want to start on the index. It's especially bad when descending (like from the G string moving toward the E playing 3 notes per string). Is there an exercise to correct this if this is incorrect?

Also, after rests, I tend to go back to the finger I used before the rest.
Say it's a note (index), a rest, then a note. The final note I play with the index. I think my brain views the rest as where the middle should have been. Is this wrong? If so, is there an exercise to correct it? Thanks!

--If there is a rest between the string change, then you are already doing strict alternate finger picking, in a sense. One of the things that really fast shred guitar players do to keep in time, is to skip a pick swing on rests, so that they are always down picking on a downbeat. That's why you are relying on your index...it is essentially a down stroke with a pick.

But, even if I misunderstand what you are saying, unless your technique is limiting your playing in some way...then no need to change it. Do what is comfortable.

One piece of advice that I'll give you though...start developing a 3 finger technique for cases that involve odd note groupings. If you rely on your index finger to keep your time, having a competent third finger available will prove very useful from time to time. Also, if you can't already, you might want to develop your pick playing too. Some music is much easier to play with a pick. Having extra options is always a good thing.

 

[HolmeBass]

I will interject: rakes are efficient and smooth but sometimes you want the slightly more separate articulation that comes from continuing to alternate plucking fingers. Always raking can sound bad, like a lisp when talking or something. I do rake frequently but there are times when the sound is wrong. Keep your ears in the game.