Am I racist?

[warwick.hoy]

I will say that I do remember hearing as a kid,...that replacing "ask" with "axe" was a legitimate usage of the word. I cannot recall where I heard it and trying to confirm using the word "axe" in that manner is not easy through mainstream sources.

 

[teleharmonium]

In fact, I think I've corrected students on this particular pronunciation (not just black student's either) easily less than 10 times in my 9 years at this school. But this is the first time that I was called a 'racist' for it.

Understood. It certainly was harsh for her to jump to that conclusion. I don't think she's right, but if you look at it from her point of view, the thing is that there's already a cultural difference and some institutional insensitivity built in to the whole experience. It's hard to separate cultural factors from what we think is the measurement of intelligence, especially if one group dominates the creation of the standards, and we still have a long way to go in that.

With that starting point of you (not on a personal level, but because of who you are and your role) probably being regarded (not without some justification in a historical sense) with suspicion as a condescending outsider, you basically told her that a common word that is an everyday part of her world, is wrong.

But when she goes home, it's right again. It doesn't feel good to have something that you are used to, and maybe even see as an identity difference that tells you how close someone else is to your subjective reality, flatly rejected, like it's not only second class, but simply unacceptable. Imagine how you would feel if a person in a position of authority over you told you that bass isn't a real instrument, or that your favorite beer or car or movie, or the way you pronounce the name of a street in your own neighborhood, was crap. Not just as their opinion, but in their role as an authority figure, in front of your peers.

She didn't have to use the R word, but we can't expect kids to have great restraint or sensitivity. A lot of adults don't even have that.

 

[basstotheface]

Not racist, but kind of a dick thing to do.

 

[UncleFluffy]

I'm sure you're aware that usage determines grammar, not the other way around

That's the descriptivist viewpoint. There are other, equally absolute, viewpoints.

Personally, I see it more as a circular relationship. Usage changes the recognised norm but it's still fair to regard people who stray far from the current norm as being in error once they choose to render themselves incapable of communicating effectively with others.

She wasn't in a job interview. She's in school. Which she is required to attend.

If the question is what is appropriate for the context, there is no point in a hypothetical about a different context, since the answer depends solely on that.

But that goes to the "what is the purpose of school?" question. To which my response would be "many things, one of which is preparing people for job interviews".

IMO, etc ...

 

[Eublet]

Oh dear God, people. All the drama in these responses.

Maki, you had every right to say what you did. You can't worry about a 13 year old's perspective when youre honestly trying to teach them something. When I was a kid growing up in southern Alabama, teachers corrected students all the time for using southern slang. Words like "ain't" were immediately met with correction if used in a classroom. Thank God for it because instead of sounding like a redneck hillbilly I can actually travel the world and have people express surprise when I tell them where I've spent 34 of my 39 years living. I can drive 2 hours away from where I live, still in Alabama, and I can barely understand some of the people I talk to because they had redneck teachers that didn't help them out.

Is it insensitive to correct someone for improper grammar in school, or is it worse to let them say whatever they want and grow up to be incompatible with a business environment that expects people to know how to use the English language? This is ridiculous. If you don't mean it as an insult, and didn't try to harm the child by correcting her, then I think you are fine, Maki. The right road is seldom the easiest road.

 

[Relic]

Understood. It certainly was harsh for her to jump to that conclusion. I don't think she's right, but if you look at it from her point of view, the thing is that there's already a cultural difference and some institutional insensitivity built in to the whole experience. It's hard to separate cultural factors from what we think is the measurement of intelligence, especially if one group dominates the creation of the standards, and we still have a long way to go in that.

With that starting point of you (not on a personal level, but because of who you are and your role) probably being regarded (not without some justification in a historical sense) with suspicion as a condescending outsider, you basically told her that a common word that is an everyday part of her world, is wrong.

But when she goes home, it's right again. It doesn't feel good to have something that you are used to, and maybe even see as an identity difference that tells you how close someone else is to your subjective reality, flatly rejected, like it's not only second class, but simply unacceptable. Imagine how you would feel if a person in a position of authority over you told you that bass isn't a real instrument, or that your favorite beer or car or movie, or the way you pronounce the name of a street in your own neighborhood, was crap. Not just as their opinion, but in their role as an authority figure, in front of your peers.

Very good post. Makes a lot of sense. Still, my point is that regardless of all of this, "ask" is still the generally accepted way to pronounce the word in this country, right or wrong. Yes, she very well may end up in a situation where "axe" is just fine, but at least if she's made aware that there IS a different way to pronounce it, she now has the advantage to use it to her own best benefit. Not just with that word, but with many.
Maybe Maki was too harsh in his approach, but in some ways as silly as it might sound, it's kind of like bilingualism IMO - give a kid the ability to use language beyond what they're familiar with and you're giving them an advantage, no?

 

[DWBass]

In that situation...............no, it was not a racist interaction. If her own mother corrected her, would she have replied the same way? I doubt it! If anything, she tried to play the race card! My mom was an English major in college and corrected my brother and I relentlessly growing up to the point, we actually thought about what we said before speaking with her!

 

[BassyBill]

Not racist at all. Especially as I'm sure you would have picked this up with any kid using the same pronunciation, regardless of what colour they were.

But in the circumstances, I personally would perhaps have been a bit more subtle or less emphatic. Maybe by responding, for example, "Sure - ask away." This would have been enough to make the point in a positive, friendly but unequivocal way, if done just right (and how important is that for a teacher?).

Just sayin'.

 

[MakiSupaStar]

See I am amazed she jumped right to the racist card instead of just calling you an @$$. Even if it is "correct" this is one of those things you talk to her after class about instead of calling her out and embarrassing her in front of her friends. That is all I see you guilty of, poor judgement.

Oh let me clarify, I was standing right next to her. The class was busy working and there was a certain level of noise associated with this. Our conversation was one on one. The class wasn't involved until she loudly called me a racist.

 

[Eublet]

In that situation...............no, it was not a racist interaction. If her own mother corrected her, would she have replied the same way? I doubt it! If anything, she tried to play the race card! My mom was an English major in college and corrected my brother and I relentlessly growing up to the point, we actually thought about what we said before speaking with her!

Same here. My mom corrected me all the time as youngster and early teen. By the time I was of driving age, I knew how to speak properly, especially when a formal or respectful situation required it. Of course, I do have a southern draw at times, especially in casual conversation with friends. I also tend to use southern idioms and absolutely have an accent in those situations. That's not a big deal because most everyone has that. As any speech therapist will tell you, the earlier you identify and treat incorrect speech habits, the better chance you have of overcoming them.

 

[fenderhutz]

Oh let me clarify, I was standing right next to her. The class was busy working and there was a certain level of noise associated with this. Our conversation was one on one. The class wasn't involved until she loudly called me a racist.

Sounds like she hears about whitey quite a bit at home then lol. I kid I kid.

Sounds like she just has the typical youngin' authority issues, probably not the first time she called someone racist.

 

[Eublet]

Oh let me clarify, I was standing right next to her. The class was busy working and there was a certain level of noise associated with this. Our conversation was one on one. The class wasn't involved until she loudly called me a racist.

The really sad part in all this is that she's already learned had to drop the equivalent of a social nuclear bomb when someone confronts her with something she doesn't want to hear. I don't want to overly dramatize things either, but honestly what you are dealing with here is an early form of white-guilt which for many folks grows into being afraid to say anything for fear of being labeled a racist or bigot. It's a sickening trend that's not justified, but I fear some minorities members are fully comfortable letting it play out anyway.

 

[Popbumper]

You know, political correctness has offered SO MUCH to humanity - it in fact has created more of a propensity TOWARDS racism than anything. When you create artificially defined classes of behavior and the rules that should be followed, you set the stage for dramatic performances.....

Chris

 

[teleharmonium]

Personally, I see it more as a circular relationship. Usage changes the recognised norm but it's still fair to regard people who stray far from the current norm as being in error once they choose to render themselves incapable of communicating effectively with others..

In this example, as is generally the case with this particular word, the communication was correctly understood the first time. It's not a question of her being incapable of getting the point across.

But that goes to the "what is the purpose of school?" question. To which my response would be "many things, one of which is preparing people for job interviews".

Agreed, but what kind of job interviews ? It also goes back to my earlier question of whether we just need them to know the difference and pick the appropriate form by context, or whether education is supposed to eradicate the Black English usage. The latter, kind of sounds racist.

Is it reasonable to assume that the kid (by the time she gets to that age) will not be aware of and able to use the more common form when she is in a job interview ?

Exactly how much homogenization is appropriate for school ? Because it cuts both ways, and there are double standards. There are certain common mispronunciations that white folks use which don't generally get corrected in oral speech (acrost, excetera, "for all intensive purposes", heigth, miniture); they tend to be considered folksy or quaint or just go unnoticed.

 

[buzzbass]

good grammar is good grammar, no substitue for it. I hate when folks throw the race card for you correcting them on their ignorance. you may be a cracka, but you're no racist.

 

[Relic]

Exactly how much homogenization is appropriate for school ? Because it cuts both ways, and there are double standards. There are certain common mispronunciations that white folks use which don't generally get corrected in oral speech (acrost, excetera, "for all intensive purposes", heigth, miniture); they tend to be considered folksy or quaint or just go unnoticed.

Actually, those words were sorta beat out of me by some catholic nuns for much the same reasons and I stated above Which is why I may lean towards correcting the whole "axe" thing. Who knows, maybe it's ingrained into my psyche

 

[aborgman]

The underlying questions are, what is the purpose of education when it comes to a living language?

Standardisation.

Is it to make everyone the same ?

It's to make everyone the same enough to foster communication.

Or is it enough to be aware of the mainstream grammar without necessarily being obliged to use it ?

One is only obliged to use it if they wish to communicate effectively.

Who gets to say what is correct, and why them ?

Society - the ultimate arbiter of all social norms.

Does it depend on where you are ?

Of course. When in Rome, do as the Romans and all that.

 

[teleharmonium]

Yes, she very well may end up in a situation where "axe" is just fine, but at least if she's made aware that there IS a different way to pronounce it, she now has the advantage to use it to her own best benefit. Not just with that word, but with many.
Maybe Maki was too harsh in his approach, but in some ways as silly as it might sound, it's kind of like bilingualism IMO - give a kid the ability to use language beyond what they're familiar with and you're giving them an advantage, no?

I agree, I think something along the lines of "the way we say that word in this class is ask" would have been the way to go.

 

[Muzoid]

Good News from me....I do not see you as racist in any-way-shape-or-form.

Ax, is some urban lingo the emerged many years ago, and it's just plain bad English...problem is, when it started, some teachers and parents were doing it too...so no one corrected it.

I think it's one of the most ridiculous proxy words ever....how the hell can you not pronounce Ask?

It's right up there with Liberry (Library)

 

[aborgman]

Is it reasonable to assume that the kid (by the time she gets to that age) will not be aware of and able to use the more common form when she is in a job interview ?

Based on my experience, yes.