am I totally unreasonable?

[steveksux]

You need to find rules the guys can live with.

Or find guys that can live with the rules.

Sometimes its a fine line to walk.

In this case, you laid out what they were getting into right from the start, so they can't claim they're shocked, you changed, or they didn't agree to the concept.

So I'd be tempted to keep the rules in this case. Beside, the guitarist isn't trying to reason with you and persuade you of an alternate plan. He's acting like a dick cause he doesn't like something. Just throwing a tantrum.

If anyone else is in your band is smart, and as serious about it as you are, they'll see what the guitarist is doing, and if the situation isn't corrected, they'll leave for a situation that is sufficiently serious. Clock is ticking. If you're lucky, they'll start looking and won't quit until they find something, instead of quit first and then look. So you may have some time. Or, you may not....

Point being, doing lose the good players dithering about what to do with one that isn't pulling his weight.

Randy

 

[JonathanD]

Should have fired him long ago. That is what sucks about a limited talent pool.

I have played with a band leader. I love it. They do the work...I learn and perform some songs. Fantastic.

Jonathan

 

[Steve]

I pretty much agree completely with the OP's band vision. I'd probably do it exactly the same way. That's why I don't run a band unless I absolutely have to.

Fernandina Beach Florida is a VERY small town.
Brunswick Georiga is a VERY small town.

Jacksonville Florida, while not small, may in fact be the Mecca of music idiocy. Chock full of snotty, self righteous, original music metal / shred heads that are, well, just plain bad. The remaining .005% of the players that are actually capable of filling the OP's needs are already working in more than one band and making as much money as they want.

I'm not sure where the "Cut off your nose to spite your face" line is but, I'm betting the OP can see it from where he's standing.

I wish him luck. I'd like to hear that band. Heck, I'd like to be IN that band. I'm tired of trying to shove art down the throats of people that just want to dance, have fun and blow off a little steam.

 

[Quadcam]

Who defines "good reason"? How about..."Because Britney Spears sux azz!"
That's plenty good reason.

Well yeh thats true but the song we're covering is the Bowling for Soup metal style cover of it and actually thats one song he isn't complaining about playing. Also, it really isnt about what we like, it's about what will go over really well with chicks in the clubs.

If I was just playing the stuff I like then we would be covering 80-90's metal/thrash, Dream Theater and other progressive or rockabilly. However, when it comes to a cover band the name of the game is help sell as much alcohol as you can and that means cater to woman who will drink and dance and bring in guys who will buy more drinks.

Hell, we're covering a Madonna tune too but it's a cover of a cover, sounds kinda nightwish/lacuna coil

It seems as if you only have the one guitarist; what is this guy playing exactly? I assume he's doing some of both lead and rhythm duties? If so, maybe announce you're going to look for a second guitarist to play dedicated lead, or dedicated rhythm (whichever works for you, based on his abilities), and see what happens? Maybe he'll flip out and quit; maybe he'll receed to a non-troublesome rhythm duty? Maybe he'll emerge as an awesome lead player that you have trouble reigning in, but he's worth the trouble...??

Just a thought. Good luck!

Funny you should mention that because he went out on his own and found a rhythm guitarist, tonight was our first rehearsal including him and I have to say this was probably the best practice we've had. We got a lot done, none of the BS and had fun.

I pretty much agree completely with the OP's band vision. I'd probably do it exactly the same way. That's why I don't run a band unless I absolutely have to.

Fernandina Beach Florida is a VERY small town.
Brunswick Georiga is a VERY small town.

Jacksonville Florida, while not small, may in fact be the Mecca of music idiocy. Chock full of snotty, self righteous, original music metal / shred heads that are, well, just plain bad. The remaining .005% of the players that are actually capable of filling the OP's needs are already working in more than one band and making as much money as they want.

LOL yeh just read the local CL and that pretty much sums things up.

problem is, try to find people who want to play more then one style, especially anything remotely hip-hopish, but the new guy saw the song list tonight and he was even down with the hip hop stuff, so I was real happy about that.

So anyway, today went pretty well. Hopefully we can meet somewhere in the middle and come to an agreement. I'm not giving up just yet. BTW- I actually like doing the work, I see this as a business (fun but still a business) and therefore I am real picky about how we present ourselves and how everything is done.


Thanks for all of your input, I'll keep you updated.

 

[AltGrendel]

I guess we'll just see how things play out, I'm a non confrontational kind of person and it's been such a major PITA to find a guitarist because we live 45 mins outside of the metro area that I hate to have to start over again.

That's going to be a problem. Unless you can be in some degree of control, you'll get walking on. If you read this forum regularly, you'll notice that most problems tend to come from the person not exerting the right amount of control.

I'm not saying that you have to be an absolute control freak, but you should make clear that you can exert final vote if a tiebreaker is needed and you'll make it stick.

 

[timber22]

Quadcam, I don't think you are being unreasonable. You and your situation remind me a lot of me and my current band situation. Frustrating at times, isn't it?

 

[Nightlyraider]

I personally think you should be more open to playing other music.

In this particular situation the guitarist should be working on the stuff he expressed interest in learning by auditioning, but you also shouldn't write off songs because "you don't like them." I can understand that everyone has tastes in music, and I too have rolled my eyes at some of the more eclectic tastes of my band mates; but Dire Straits and Blue Oyster Cult aren't exactly unpopular tunes and to write them off because you don't like the song personally is silly.

Sultans of Swing in particular is a cover song you could play almost anywhere and 95% of the group is gonna appreciate it.

 

[Geddyfleaharris]

Maybe he has turned a corner after last night's jam but my original thought was that you guys aren't on the same page; just like a lot of the other posters. Your vision is fine. I hate bands that have no personality.


Other thoughts:

I play in 2 cover bands. I am pretty easy to get along with and don't rock the boat too much. The songs are covers and there are plenty out there. No sense sweating too much over songs. That goes for him and you. Either it is a cover band or it isn't. If the songs were originals then there are plenty of reasons to butt heads in the name of making great music.

In the 2 bands I am in we all have our roles outside the actual music. Personally If I was to join a band and someone said it was THEIR band and THEY had most/all of the control etc etc. well then their name better be big enough in the local market to have all kinds of doors open and all kinds of gigs available. If I have no say then I better not have to do much outside of playing my bass.

 

[Craig_S]

I wish I had a buck for every song I've played that I didn't care for. Anymore, I get more enjoyment from seeing the people have fun than I do from playing.

Wanna wank? Play songs you like. Wanna make money? Play songs the crowd likes. Wanna make a lot of money? Make sure the ladies like what you play. No brainer.

If you're a professional you'll play whatever you need to play to make it work. If the guitarist isn't a professional, lose him and find someone who will do the job you need him to do. The same goes for the bass player.

 

[ChrisB2]

Funny you should mention that because he went out on his own and found a rhythm guitarist, tonight was our first rehearsal including him and I have to say this was probably the best practice we've had. We got a lot done, none of the BS and had fun.

Wow. That's disturbing. If I were running a band, I would NOT want a member doing anything "on his own" that affected the band... especially something so huge as bringing in a new member. Man, that is just wrong. You should fire this guy right now... if you want to keep control of your band. He's obviously going to act on his own, which means eventually you're heading for a show-down.

Having a guy like that on board, coupled with a non-confrontational attitude, is a good way to have your band stolen from you.

Good luck.

 

[invader3k]

This sounds like the classic "New guy trying to completely take over the band", type of person. In my experience, you're not going to change this person. Either he's going to get frustrated and leave because you're not using all his "awesome" ideas, or the rest of the band is going to be subverted by him, and you'll be the one on the outs!

 

[PlanetEarth]

I am the bands originator and the band leader, as such I have final say on anything we do.

I'm a little lost on this - you hired these guys, you gave them songs to learn, you're paying them for rehearsals, and giving them a guarantee on gigs, right? I agree with you, what say do they have at all.

On the other hand, if you asked them to join your band and with that assume all the responsibility of investing time, rehearsals, maybe eating it on a gig here and there or whatever, then, that sounds like a business partnership, in which case, you don't have an over-ruling final say.

Think of it this way, while your boss may value and want your opinion, what he does with it is completely outside your control, but, you get your paycheck and ultimately that's what your there for. On the other hand, you've bought into 50% of the business and are now half owner, with that, the bottom line and profitability of the business directly effects your bottom line... Whole different ball game...

IMHO - if you have that much of a defined plan and are confident in your strategy to generate revenue - I'd say, pull together some operating capital, hit the studio with some hired-gun/session cats, pump out a 4 banger demo, hire someone to transcribe your set list and create a book for ya, then build up your black book of first call session players. If your concept is tight and your demo hot, booking should be a snap.... Now you got charts and a black book full of hot session players, just line em up per gig, pay em the going rate for your area, the rest is all you.... And maybe you have to eat it on a gig or two, but, it's your company, and that's the risk associated with ANY start-up business. But, you'll be the boss and have final say... And I promise, any hired-guns with a rep. will not present any of the issues you're speaking of.

I do hundreds of sub and on-call gigs each year, I'm certainly not gonna walk in the door and tell the boss how to run his business, I'm there to do a job well (which often includes playing material I would otherwise not personally listen to, I embrace it as a challenge to have to perform well and indulge myself in something my personal taste otherwise finds unpalatable) - if they want my opinion on something they'll ask and I'm happy to give it with no expectations. I also get asked to *join bands* daily and turn em down daily - because most times "join my band" really is just code for "we need a bassist but can't promise you'll make any money". So, unless it's a gig that I personally know I'm gonna get a musical fix from or I think is headed for the Billboard Top 100.... No thanks.... I've got plenty of friends who are good players that I can get together and *jam* with anytime I just want to play. With that, I'll admit it's bitten me in the ass a couple times - there have been offers I've rejected and subsequently did in fact end up on the Billboard Top 100. But, I'm OK with that, I'd rather remain anonymous and be paid to play on many recordings headed there rather then play for free on one that will only be there temporarily.

 

[Quadcam]

I'm a little lost on this - you hired these guys, you gave them songs to learn, you're paying them for rehearsals, and giving them a guarantee on gigs, right? I agree with you, what say do they have at all.

On the other hand, if you asked them to join your band and with that assume all the responsibility of investing time, rehearsals, maybe eating it on a gig here and there or whatever, then, that sounds like a business partnership, in which case, you don't have an over-ruling final say.

no, didnt hire them, I put up ad's, gave them a song list and they joined the band. I had to say I have final say for things like band members telling people, yeh, we'll play your party for free for the exposure. Really thats the main reason, keeping us from getting sucked into deals and to cover our azz. I'm just trying to do whats best for the band thats all.

 

[VincentGrim]

+100 to Planet's words. To repeat his words more bluntly, if you are paying these dudes than they should stick to what you've got setup, take their cash, and go home. If you've sought these people out to join the band hoping that your leadership would be implied...Well, their only gonna take so much of that. I think the problem is that you want a session guitarist but you got someone who wants to legitimately be a part of a band. Maybe your bassist/other band members are starting to feel the same way.

 

[PlanetEarth]

no, didnt hire them, I put up ad's, gave them a song list and they joined the band. I had to say I have final say for things like band members telling people, yeh, we'll play your party for free for the exposure. Really thats the main reason, keeping us from getting sucked into deals and to cover our azz. I'm just trying to do whats best for the band thats all.

And perhaps that's the problem? - You've asked people to share the burden and risk of starting the *company* but have already decided that you know "what's best for the band". Good leaders recognize the value of those around them, they are a *people-person*, and typically don't think of themselves as leaders but rather just another member of the team. Now you'll do one of two things with that info, either immediately reply claiming to be all those things, or, walk away and spend a couple days thinking about it and being REAL, REAL honest with yourself; the result of the later will be life altering.

You need to decide if you want partners in your business, if you want employees that's fine too, but get the checkbook out.

But to give you a more direct answer that you can act on: if the mix doesn't work move on, you have a better chance of finding replacements in Antarctica then you do of changing someones personality. Though from what I've heard if I were a betting man I'd say history will repeat itself unless your willing to change as well.

As an alternative and IMHO higher road to take - embrace it as a challenge and a learning experience, instead of placing blame, assume it. There's a couple typical methodologies in corporate America, 1.) Low morale is a direct effect of poor management 2.) There is no such thing as bad employees, only bad managers. Personally, if it were me, I'd be captivated at the proposition of having to solve this problem and making it work, firing or replacing them, short of a last ditch action having exhausted every other possible option, would be failure on my part.

 

[ChrisB2]

no, didnt hire them, I put up ad's, gave them a song list and they joined the band. I had to say I have final say for things like band members telling people, yeh, we'll play your party for free for the exposure. Really thats the main reason, keeping us from getting sucked into deals and to cover our azz. I'm just trying to do whats best for the band thats all.

And perhaps that's the problem? - You've asked people to share the burden and risk of starting the *company* but have already decided that you know "what's best for the band". Good leaders recognize the value of those around them, they are a *people-person*, and typically don't think of themselves as leaders but rather just another member of the team. Now you'll do one of two things with that info, either immediately reply claiming to be all those things, or, walk away and spend a couple days thinking about it and being REAL, REAL honest with yourself; the result of the later will be life altering.

Sheesh, some of you guys are making it sound as if there are only two types of bands: those that are pure democracies, and those that have a leader with paid employee musicians.

I play in a cover band with a leader, and everyone gets an equal share of gig receipts. In other words, we all share risk and reward, with no guaranteed income, but yet we also have a leader we follow.

There's nothing wrong with Quad's vision for his band. I don't think he's demanding that you join him and follow his rules. Just because you don't like his structure doesn't mean it's wrong. And his bandmates are probably free to leave at their will also.

instead of placing blame, assume it.

So, it's Quad's fault that this guy ran out and booked free gigs on his own? Let me get this straight: you're saying that if you were the leader of this band, and you don't want to play for free, and one of your members booked your band for free anyway, you would be okay with that? Right?

You have five seconds to reply and either say yes, that would be okay with you, or go away and think very hard about the idea that, hmmm, yeah, leaders are okay, and they need to have some basic level of control. The outcome of the latter will be life changing.

 

[PlanetEarth]

Sheesh, some of you guys are making it sound as if there are only two types of bands: those that are pure democracies, and those that have a leader with paid employee musicians.

Taking observation of the number of posts of this nature that may be true...

So, let me get this straight: you're saying that if you were the leader of this band, and you don't want to play for free, and one of your members booked your band for free anyway, you would be okay with that? Right?

You have five seconds to reply and either say yes, that would be okay with you, or go away and think very hard about the idea that, hmmm, yeah, leaders are okay, and they need to have some basic level of control. The outcome of the latter will be life changing.

I'll bite - I wouldn't be a "band leader" - I'm a musician, if I wanted to be a CEO then it wouldn't be with a bass in my hands. I also wouldn't go into business with partners that take action on their own accord without consulting with everyone that has a sharing interest.

With that, as I said earlier, unless I'm getting a musical fix or it's headed for the Billboard Top 100 - I'll pass, and if it is, then whoever extended the offer can lead till the fat lady sings.

Anyway, I don't think anyone ever said leaders are not OK - The undertone IMHO is how to lead...

 

[PlanetEarth]

So, it's Quad's fault that this guy ran out and booked free gigs on his own?

Right, that's exactly what we're saying... Come on man, are you looking to contribute or just fishing for a debate? You can't pull 6 words from a paragraph and alter the bigger message for the sake of argument. Religious wars have been going on for thousands of years over actions like that.

Anyway, I'm out, while opinions are being asked for I'm happy to share, but, I'm definitely not gonna sit here and defend them - It's just an opinion, and like an a$*hole, everyone's got one... Just my $0.02, do what you want with it or don't.

 

[pbd]

Leaders need to lead but a good leader will work well with what he has. Its very tough to get a group of people together and get it all to work especially with something as emotionally charged as music.

Is there a way to throw this guy a bone? Use a couple of the songs he would like to play to get him ingage better? Even just one song a night? How about doing some paradies of the songs he doesn't like? That could be very entertaining.

If this guy isn't buying into the bands direction it may be time to move on. A distraction like this can really keep you from progressing as band and the audience will eventually suffer.

This all said, some steady gigs and a couple of paychecks can really get someone on board too! Book a few and see how it goes, sometimes money talks too!

my 2 cents,
Todd

 

[JohnMCA72]

Originally Posted by PlanetEarth:
instead of placing blame, assume it.

So, it's Quad's fault that this guy ran out and booked free gigs on his own? Let me get this straight: you're saying that if you were the leader of this band, and you don't want to play for free, and one of your members booked your band for free anyway, you would be okay with that? Right?

You have five seconds to reply and either say yes, that would be okay with you, or go away and think very hard about the idea that, hmmm, yeah, leaders are okay, and they need to have some basic level of control. The outcome of the latter will be life changing.

Quad's "fault" was in not being clear up front, what was expected, what everybody's role was, & how things were going to be run. I've seen more problems caused by people just "assuming" that everybody is on the same page, when really they're not, than anything else.

JM