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Am I wrong?

A

AlphaMale

Oct 30, 2006
1,792
1
Ventura County
#1
I played Blue Train by John Coltrane,
A hard bop Piece.
I played a solo over the chords.
And the Teacher and Another bass player said I should have played around with the melody.

I don't think I HAVE TO, do I?
I specifically remember being told Bop is about Harmonic Structure and less about melody. I do think its cool to play around with the melody and everything I would do that, but I just didn't, and I don't think I should have to for it to be adequate or that a solo that does is automatically better than if it didn't. But he did have a point that it would have provided coherence. If I am wrong, or need some advice please let me know.
 
#2
Well, you WERE playing Blue Train, and it IS the melody that defines that tune from another one, not the harmonic changes. So technically no, you weren't wrong, but if you just decided to run some modes up and down the neck and not reference the fact that you were playing Blue Train other than the other guys in the combo were too, then yes, you were wrong.

Bebop is harmonically more complex and faster/more technical because it was a reaction to the dance band scene of the war era. Bebop players wanted to play faster, more complex music so that people couldn't dance to it. They had to sit and listen. Hard bop is again another reaction to the complexity and fatigue of bebop, so now the tempos slow down and the harmonic rhythm is not as dense, but there is still a SONG to be played.

There is a difference between competent improvisation and feckless wanking. Where is that line? I think you know, now.

You might try to learn to blow on that tune by playing the melody over and over and over again. Play it until you are absolutely sick of it but can play/sing/write it out forwards and backwards. And then play it again but only change 1 note every 4 bars. Now go back and play it changing only 2 notes ever 4 bars. Play it again and leave out 3 notes every 4 bars. See what is happening here? This is a technique called Melodic Gradients. How far out can you take it? Well, when you aren't playing Blue Trane any more then you've gone too far.


I will put on my flameproof suit, but I firmly believe that people who take their turns through the changes and wank on their instrument because that is their "statement" are wholly uninteresting and don't get it. Go back to the practice room.
 
#3
You're right, bop playing is more about the harmonic structure than the melody, but you're talking about a hard bop tune.

2 very different types of jazz.

Not that you have to play any way on any type of tune. Perhaps they were just giving you a suggestion on a different type of approach, not knowing that you are apparently more familiar with it.
 
#4
2 very different types of jazz.
Click to expand...

Eh, I wouldn't say very different. They're quite similar actually, hard bop simply being an evolution of the former.

Onlyclave gave some very good ideas here. Playing the changes is cool, but when you're just doing that you're not playing the tune. The original jazz solos were just paraphrases and embellishments of the melody, and they got a LOT of mileage with that. Some of the best solos of ANY genre of jazz are paraphrased directly from the melody. Figuring how to create your own melodic statements while honoring the original ones is an integral part to your study of improvisation.
 
#7
This causes me to raise a question about functions of the bass in music:

The bass, classically, hold up the bottom of the harmony. Jazz and bop throw that out the window. But what IS the general function of the bass in this situation. Is it to drive the harmony and support the piece so it has a foundation, or is it to say, "Bollucks!" to the harmony and focus on counterpoint, or some combination of the two?

I just would like to get a better idea of where people are coming from so I can understand the answers to the question better.

Beast
 
#8
You don't "have" to use the melody in your soloing but it can never hurt. If you're playing a common set of changes (like blues for ex.) it's more necessary because otherwise, it could be any old tune. You don't have to base your whole solo on the melody (although you can), but it's often useful to at least quote it.

Quoting is great for a lot of reasons: it's familiar to the listener, it's always going to sound good, and it gives you a chance to take a little breather.
 
#9
kb9wyz said:
This causes me to raise a question about functions of the bass in music:

The bass, classically, hold up the bottom of the harmony. Jazz and bop throw that out the window. But what IS the general function of the bass in this situation. Is it to drive the harmony and support the piece so it has a foundation, or is it to say, "Bollucks!" to the harmony and focus on counterpoint, or some combination of the two?

I just would like to get a better idea of where people are coming from so I can understand the answers to the question better.

Beast
Click to expand...

Uh, no. The bass is absolutely outlining the harmony at all times. Just because walking bass tends to be contrapuntal to the melody or solos does NOT mean he is ignoring the changes.

The general function in this situation is to provide melodic counterpoint by being a rhythmic anchor. In the case of Blue Trane, Paul Chambers is always outlining the harmony.
 
#11
Why are you upset with what the teacher said, it's a class for you to learn. Did you ask why they want you to do that, they must have a reason. I guess is your solo probably was too abstract from the tune. Many time Jazz players start a solo by embellishing the melody they build their solo up. Even if they don't restate the melody good Blues and Jazz players make a statement with a simple riff or motif then build and expand on it till they feel taken it where they can and start another motif. Classical music has the same with theme and variations. I didn't hear your solo but I would guess you need work on phrasing and composing your solo.

I remember in school the best class I ever had was on just playing the heads of Jazz tunes. The panel of teachers would comment on if we playing the melody with a vocal like quality, phrasing, dynamics, timbre. Standing there you'd they would have you change registers, try using only one or two strings for some phrases, and other techniques to make the heads come alive. All that learning to play heads comes thru in your solos with better phrasing, dynamics, and getting your audience interested in what you have to say musically.
 
#13
AlphaMale said:
I played Blue Train by John Coltrane,
A hard bop Piece.
I played a solo over the chords.
And the Teacher and Another bass player said I should have played around with the melody.

I don't think I HAVE TO, do I?
I specifically remember being told Bop is about Harmonic Structure and less about melody. I do think its cool to play around with the melody and everything I would do that, but I just didn't, and I don't think I should have to for it to be adequate or that a solo that does is automatically better than if it didn't. But he did have a point that it would have provided coherence. If I am wrong, or need some advice please let me know.
Click to expand...
I think the only advice I could give you is listen to your teacher, and remember that the purpose of playing isn't necessarily to be technically correct, but to emotionally move and inspire people. Not hearing what you played, who knows if it moved people, but it apparently didn't move these two guys. Don't be so quick to dismiss the idea of quoting the melody in spots. It's a great tip for bringing out emotion in people and move yourself past the "technically correct but not emotional" level.

I used to have a teacher who would make me do 3 solos for everything...one quoting the exact melody, one working the melody around your solo without directly quoting it the whole way through, and one going freestyle. I thought that was a great way to learn how to bring out emotion in the music.
 
#14
onlyclave said:
Well, you WERE playing Blue Train, and it IS the melody that defines that tune from another one, not the harmonic changes. So technically no, you weren't wrong, but if you just decided to run some modes up and down the neck and not reference the fact that you were playing Blue Train other than the other guys in the combo were too, then yes, you were wrong.

Bebop is harmonically more complex and faster/more technical because it was a reaction to the dance band scene of the war era. Bebop players wanted to play faster, more complex music so that people couldn't dance to it. They had to sit and listen. Hard bop is again another reaction to the complexity and fatigue of bebop, so now the tempos slow down and the harmonic rhythm is not as dense, but there is still a SONG to be played.

There is a difference between competent improvisation and feckless wanking. Where is that line? I think you know, now.

You might try to learn to blow on that tune by playing the melody over and over and over again. Play it until you are absolutely sick of it but can play/sing/write it out forwards and backwards. And then play it again but only change 1 note every 4 bars. Now go back and play it changing only 2 notes ever 4 bars. Play it again and leave out 3 notes every 4 bars. See what is happening here? This is a technique called Melodic Gradients. How far out can you take it? Well, when you aren't playing Blue Trane any more then you've gone too far.


I will put on my flameproof suit, but I firmly believe that people who take their turns through the changes and wank on their instrument because that is their "statement" are wholly uninteresting and don't get it. Go back to the practice room.
Click to expand...

DocBop said:
Why are you upset with what the teacher said, it's a class for you to learn. Did you ask why they want you to do that, they must have a reason. I guess is your solo probably was too abstract from the tune. Many time Jazz players start a solo by embellishing the melody they build their solo up. Even if they don't restate the melody good Blues and Jazz players make a statement with a simple riff or motif then build and expand on it till they feel taken it where they can and start another motif. Classical music has the same with theme and variations. I didn't hear your solo but I would guess you need work on phrasing and composing your solo.

I remember in school the best class I ever had was on just playing the heads of Jazz tunes. The panel of teachers would comment on if we playing the melody with a vocal like quality, phrasing, dynamics, timbre. Standing there you'd they would have you change registers, try using only one or two strings for some phrases, and other techniques to make the heads come alive. All that learning to play heads comes thru in your solos with better phrasing, dynamics, and getting your audience interested in what you have to say musically.
Click to expand...

JimmyM said:
I think the only advice I could give you is listen to your teacher, and remember that the purpose of playing isn't necessarily to be technically correct, but to emotionally move and inspire people. Not hearing what you played, who knows if it moved people, but it apparently didn't move these two guys. Don't be so quick to dismiss the idea of quoting the melody in spots. It's a great tip for bringing out emotion in people and move yourself past the "technically correct but not emotional" level.

I used to have a teacher who would make me do 3 solos for everything...one quoting the exact melody, one working the melody around your solo without directly quoting it the whole way through, and one going freestyle. I thought that was a great way to learn how to bring out emotion in the music.
Click to expand...

Good stuff.

AlphaMale, can you play well lyrically? Perhaps your instructors are telling you to not to put the cart before the horse.

Perhaps we can learn something from an unlikely source. This is very important, so pay close attention to the phrasing and feel:







Props to MakiSupaStar for the vid. :D
 

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