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Am6 = A minor w/ major 6?

I hope the original poster got his answer with all those confusing replies.

My main point was to make sure that people will understand that there is no such thing as an Amin(b6) because it cannot function in its primary and fundamental position without a clash. If it doesn't sound good in its primary position then it should be modified and be seen as something else in this case a F/A or ami(#5).

I feel sorry for the ones who want to learn about theory by coming here and find out that there is a childish attitude like " MY FATHER IS STRONGER THEN YOURS" in the debates. It doesn't help people to try learning about that stuff because the discussions here go nowhere.

SO WELCOME TO GENERAL CONFUSION FORUM ON TALKBASS!!!
:eyebrow:

Sylvain
 
Hey, everyone loves to dissect stuff to its most ridiculous degree on TB. Why should chords be any different?

BTW, while you are right about the b6, I must reiterate the one great rule of writing charts...keep it simple. The less over-analyzing you cause for the player, the better. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck, so write it as a duck.

Or words to that effect.
 
BTW, while you are right about the b6, I must reiterate the one great rule of writing charts...keep it simple. The less over-analyzing you cause for the player, the better. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck, so write it as a duck.

.

Amen. If I see Am b6 on a big band chart, I know exactly what to do.
 
LOL
I guess it would have been easier to answer the original post in a musical context. As long as youngters do know that they shouldn't play the perfect fifth AND the b6 all together. Because usually any 6th chord implies 4 notes and in the context of the a min it would sound like a mistake.

As far as seeing a min(b6) on a Sammy Nestico's chart I doubt it!

Sylvain
 
Alright. My bass player buddy keeps sending me postings from here.

Having written a few thousand charts (that people have paid for), and learned a great deal about the craft from my pops, here's my two cents, which is a basically summation of a few things said before:

Ami triad = A C E

Now it was vague whether or not the original poster was saying whether or not the 5th is still included in the chord. So here goes:

Fma7/A = A C E F, though most keyboard players by default are going voice the right hand either F A C E, or E F A C.

One thing my pops said, and I agree--If you want it played a certain way, tell them. An easy, no brainer way to do that:
Am(add F). Problem solved. 9 times out of 10, it'll be voiced as an Am chord with an added F on top (A C E F)

If the 5th is NOT supposed to be played:
F/A will suffice, but do note that colorwise, unless it's recognized and played as part of a progression (below) that provides more insight into the voicing, keyboard players may omit the 3rd in the right hand to provide more consonance (so, like a F5/A or Fomit3/A), the David Foster thing (which I'm guilty of doing on poppy ballads) is to read an F/A as an Fsus2/A (omit the 3rd and play the 2nd instead). So if an F/A is out by itself and you're concerned how it might be voiced, F/A is pretty concise theory-wise, but it can be colored MANY ways depending on the player, the style, and the context.

If you're talking about a progression standpoint (as mentioned before: Am Am+5 Am6 Am+5) then:
I'd much rather see:
Am Am+5 Am6 Am+5 (the Scherer books do this)
than
Am F/A Am6 F/A
In theory they mean the same thing, but guitar players in particular are less likely to jump around to grab an F-based voicing).
In fact, it's getting to be more common to see:
Am +5 6 +5
Which clues the player in further that it's a progression and not a massive change.

I guarantee that if you start bringing b13 b6 notation into the mix, you will confuse a portion of players. I've seen a good number of charts I have written where b13's and colors have been CROSSED OUT, to make things easy for a lazy player. If I know I'm writing for a non-jazz crowd (i.e. a bunch of top 40 players with questionable reading chops), I'll cut my losses and simplify changes (i.e. C7b5 instead of C7#11) in the interest of the material having a chance at keeping its coloration.

FWIW, a few bassists I play with (great players, not great readers) will go through charts ahead of time and cross out the part of the chord change that's not their root note.

Knowing how something is most likely to be read makes a huge difference. There's always a fine line between factual/theoretical correctness, and giving the player the right information to reproduce your musical intent, which 9 times out of 10 is the purpose of sheet music. Debate theory all day long--it's healthy--but if it makes it more difficult to get your point across to the player, always go with the most simple solution =)
 
FWIW, a few bassists I play with (great players, not great readers) will go through charts ahead of time and cross out the part of the chord change that's not their root note.
I've never understood that. Why would you want to limit yourself that way? I always think about interesting notes I can play in a song that are in the chord and work for the good of the song. Can't play them if they're crossed out. It's the rules ;)
 
Yes me too I don't understand when bass players crossed the chords on charts and keep just the inverted notes. It restrict the player from knowing the function of the chords and the others notes that can be played. When I play jazz or fusion,the soloist will enjoy during the solos section that I go on the roots instead of the inversions from time to time.
I think bass players should know a bit about harmony because when we play a wrong note the whole band sounds wrong.

Sylvain
 
It's like the OP asked:
How would you write A minor with a minor 6 (A, C, F)?
I find the debating/conversation very helpful. You can learn so much from discussions like this, it's like being in a classroom!

I like the levity too! Music and theory isn't life and death stuff (anymore), it's just a way to label and communicate musical ideas.

For me if I'm writing the sequence: A min > Amin7 > A min6 > Aminb6 it's to let the guy know that this sequence has a descending pattern, but the tonal center of the passage is still in A minor.
For me it would be more surprising to see Amin#5 because in my mind I'd go "a minor augmented?". I'd play it no sweat - but it would be a little distracting - "wait, do they want me to # the fourth as well?".
I wouldn't write F/A because it might give the player the idea that the root center had changed. Someone not hip to reading might base his pattern on F -- which might work, it may not.

also minb6 could be a way to denote note the Aeolian scale.
 
Right. Play the 5th and cause a giant clash.

:D

Jimmy, you crack me up.

Some of us "unschooled youngsters" don't play chords very often on bass, but we, and even occasssionaly solo. Minor chords per se, have some ambiguity. Am7 can mean dorian, natural, or phrygian. Most of us can spot a II/V/I on a upside down chart as well as the III/VI change. However, sometimes clarification is in order.

Am(b6): Play the natural minor
Am(b9): Play the phrygian

Technically incorrect, but a godsend for a job where the music sits in a 3' long bin beside your chair, the bandleader calls #452, you dig it out, scan it, play it and then you put it away, never to be seen again. And you silently thank the guy that scribbled the note over the change.

I think Tommy Tedesco would be smiling.
 
Some of us "unschooled youngsters" don't play chords very often on bass, but we, and even occasssionaly solo. Minor chords per se, have some ambiguity. Am7 can mean dorian, natural, or phrygian. Most of us can spot a II/V/I on a upside down chart as well as the III/VI change. However, sometimes clarification is in order.

Am(b6): Play the natural minor
Am(b9): Play the phrygian

Technically incorrect, but a godsend for a job where the music sits in a 3' long bin beside your chair, the bandleader calls #452, you dig it out, scan it, play it and then you put it away, never to be seen again. And you silently thank the guy that scribbled the note over the change.

Wouldn't Amin (aeolian) or Amin (phrygian) be a thousand times clearer (and more technically correct for that matter)? Valid point of course, and I've seen that done, but I don't recommend it.

I wouldn't write F/A because it might give the player the idea that the root center had changed. Someone not hip to reading might base his pattern on F -- which might work, it may not.

Well, it likely will have changed. The only time when you'll hear the root as A is when it's in a line cliché situation or some other form of pedal. And this is for the reasons I've outlined in all of my ridiculously engorged posts.

Jon Kubris' awesome post

This is what you need to know.