• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Am6 = A minor w/ major 6?

#21
slybass3000 said:
Hey Dude,
Stop bashing on a very fine explanation about a specific question here.

First stay on track with the thread because you are WAY OFF-LINE here.
I never mention the minor 9 interval in my reply because it is a minor second between E and F in this situation. And I didn't talk about dominant chords either. So I wonder here who is writing paragraphs for nothing !!!

Second, any good piano player or guitar player will know what to do when they see a chord like FMaj7/A. They will take out one of the two notes (depending on the melody) or they will substitute the root for the 9th. This is basic technique for comping or writing.

So the main thing is that there is no such thing as an Amin(b6).
It is an F/A or Amin(#5) in the case of a fifth motion.

Please refer to my first post for all the details about it.

And to add to the original thread an Amin6 is also a F#min7(b5)/A.

Take care and good luck with your atempt to write good sounding music with FMaj7/A:eyebrow:

Sylvain
Click to expand...

Whoa, whoa, first, don't take so much offense at my post. I was just disagreeing with you for your statement that Fmaj7/A (or, like I said, any inversion of a maj7 chord) should be avoided. There are plenty of times where you might want that sound. Of course, having the minor 2nd (functionally the same as minor 9th) clash in the outer voices is problematic for arranging purposes, but nobody said anything about the inner voices. Does this passage sound raucous and dissonant to you?

untitled.jpg


Besides that, I agree with your explanation, which is why I didn't quote the entire post. Me going off into tangents about dissonance also, while vaguely related, wasn't directed at you.

Tension substitution is a common practice, yes, but it's not ALWAYS done, since the minor second is sought after by a lot of people for it's characteristic bite. The chord A E F C is the most common on guitar, being a drop 2 voicing.
 
#26
Yes I agree ,this thread became too complicated with wrong informations
as well. I was trying to help the original poster with his doubt about an Amin with a b6. This chord just doesn't exist in a practical way but is in fact a very simple major chord with a third in the bass.
That's all there is to it!

I suggest for the beginners to read my first post to have a more detailed explanation for that.

It is true that the notation system is not perfect but if you use a logical approach you will find your answers.

Hope this will help,

Sylvain
 
#27
This thread is super-helpful. It's true that it's also become really difficult to follow, but on third reading and with some study in between readings, it's a really great thread - it's making me learn a lot, to try and even follow the discussion/disagreement.

There was definitely a short answer that's correct from a keyboardist's/pop arranger's point of view (Deacon Blue's short and sweet answer), but the overall discussion about harmony, root function and all was very instructive. It pulled lots of different things together and I feel less confused than I was this morning! (Any time I'm less confused, rather than more confused is a good time).

What's a drop 2 voicing?
 
#28
Music notation is defined by conventions with the intent that the composer's idea should be made immediately obvious to a sight reader. I had this point forcefully drilled into my head in composition.

A 6 after a chord refers to the 6th degree of the major chord, the natural 6th, whether the chord itself is major or minor. Hence the very common progression Am, Am7, Am6, Am.

If you want to indicate the b6, you can write Am#5,Amb6, Am b13, Am (natural), Am aeolian....Each of this notations carries an implied use (which I won't go into here).

If there is any doubt, the chords should be written out.
An Am/F# is a different beast sonically than a F#m7b5, but an adept musican knows where each fits.

Finally a paraphrased quote from my music theory teacher (J. Lo). Music theory compensates for our deficiencies in ear training.
 
#31
HaVIC5 said:
Whoa, whoa, first, don't take so much offense at my post. I was just disagreeing with you for your statement that Fmaj7/A (or, like I said, any inversion of a maj7 chord) should be avoided. There are plenty of times where you might want that sound. Of course, having the minor 2nd (functionally the same as minor 9th) clash in the outer voices is problematic for arranging purposes, but nobody said anything about the inner voices. Does this passage sound raucous and dissonant to you?

untitled.jpg


Besides that, I agree with your explanation, which is why I didn't quote the entire post. Me going off into tangents about dissonance also, while vaguely related, wasn't directed at you.

Tension substitution is a common practice, yes, but it's not ALWAYS done, since the minor second is sought after by a lot of people for it's characteristic bite. The chord A E F C is the most common on guitar, being a drop 2 voicing.
Click to expand...

That last measure is nasty! Also 68% of people on this forum cannot read that, it took me a while to figure it out I read sheet music like a first grader sounding out every note!
 
#33
HaVIC5 said:
Whoa, whoa, first, don't take so much offense at my post. I was just disagreeing with you for your statement that Fmaj7/A (or, like I said, any inversion of a maj7 chord) should be avoided. There are plenty of times where you might want that sound. Of course, having the minor 2nd (functionally the same as minor 9th) clash in the outer voices is problematic for arranging purposes, but nobody said anything about the inner voices. Does this passage sound raucous and dissonant to you?

untitled.jpg


Besides that, I agree with your explanation, which is why I didn't quote the entire post. Me going off into tangents about dissonance also, while vaguely related, wasn't directed at you.

Tension substitution is a common practice, yes, but it's not ALWAYS done, since the minor second is sought after by a lot of people for it's characteristic bite. The chord A E F C is the most common on guitar, being a drop 2 voicing.
Click to expand...

I think there is some confusion about my statement about the first inversion of a FMaj7. In your example above it is not a first inversion of a FMaj7. It is only a Fmaj7 with an A bass.There is nothing wrong with your voicing. The first inversion of that chord would give you the two Half-steps on top. Which is an avoid sound usually.

We need definition on top of a voicing unless it is the desired effect.
This is why a drop 2 voicing is so practical because it does two things:
First it opens up the voicing by spreading the range AND it clears up the top two notes by making a much larger interval between the two top notes.
Here is an exemple from top to bottom with an Amin7:

First inversion with the A of the chord on top:
A-G-E-C. So you can see that the top is really closed with only a whole-tone between the two notes.

With the drop 2 voicing you take the second note from the top which is G and you drop it 1 octave below:
A-E-C and G. So now we have a fourth on top of the chord which makes the A more defined and we have instead of a Block chord with only a sixth of distance between the top and bottom we have a more spreaded voicing that is greater then an octave (a major 9th in this case).

Hope this will clarify some issues and will help others,

Sylvain
 
#34
ZonGuy said:
Music notation is defined by conventions with the intent that the composer's idea should be made immediately obvious to a sight reader. I had this point forcefully drilled into my head in composition.

A 6 after a chord refers to the 6th degree of the major chord, the natural 6th, whether the chord itself is major or minor. Hence the very common progression Am, Am7 Am6, Am.

If you want to indicate the b6, you can write Am#5,Amb6, Am b13, Am (natural), Am aeolian....Each of this notations carries an implied use (which I won't go into here).

If there is any doubt, the chords should be written out.
An Am/F# is a different beast sonically than a F#m7b5, but an adept musican knows where each fits.

Finally a paraphrased quote from my music theory teacher (J. Lo). Music theory compensates for our deficiencies in ear training.
Click to expand...

Sorry ZonGyuy but you don't get it.

First there are no such things as minor chords with b6 or b13. It does exist in the scale but not as a chord. Please refer to my first post.

And second an Am/F# SOUNDS EXACTLY LIKE AN F#min7(b5).
Those are the exact same sound but written differently.

Check the spellig from top to bottom:

E-C-A-F# !!!

Hope this will help,

Sylvain
 
#35
slybass3000 said:
Sorry ZonGyuy but you don't get it.

First there are no such things as minor chords with b6 or b13. It does exist in the scale but not as a chord. Please refer to my first post.

And second an Am/F# SOUNDS EXACTLY LIKE AN F#min7(b5).
Those are the exact same sound but written differently.

Check the spellig from top to bottom:

E-C-A-F# !!!

Hope this will help,

Sylvain
Click to expand...

A minor triad with a flatted sixth is definetly weird, but if that's the chord, and that's the clear way to spell it, then there it is. It wouldn't necessarily be a m2 cluster at the top. Saying "it doesn't exist" doesn't change much about the situation. You'll just end up with pink spotted mb6 chords spewing out at you.

Please refer to my second post,

hope this helps.
:ninja:
 
#36
bearfoot said:
A minor triad with a flatted sixth is definetly weird, but if that's the chord, and that's the clear way to spell it, then there it is. It wouldn't necessarily be a m2 cluster at the top. Saying "it doesn't exist" doesn't change much about the situation. You'll just end up with pink spotted mb6 chords spewing out at you.

Please refer to my second post,

hope this helps.
:ninja:
Click to expand...

Well I guess you're right, I shouldn't say it doesn't exist. That sound does exist in the form of a F major triad over an A bass or in the form of an Amin(#5). There just no practical use for an Aminb6 or b13. that is what I wanted to note in my explanation.;)

Sylvain
 
#37
I think there is some confusion about my statement about the first inversion of a FMaj7. In your example above it is not a first inversion of a FMaj7. It is only a Fmaj7 with an A bass.There is nothing wrong with your voicing. The first inversion of that chord would give you the two Half-steps on top. Which is an avoid sound usually.
Click to expand...

It is an inversion, it is the chord Fmaj7/A. It's not in close position, - it's open position (not drop two) but that doesn't mean it's not in inversion. Technically speaking, it doesn't matter what order the notes above the bass note are in; as long as they are all there, it's an inversion of the chord. This is how figured bass works. There is no difference delineated between the voicing A F C and A C F - both are notated as F 6 (or F 6/3 to be technically correct)

There is no functional difference whatsoever between open position and close position voicings. An Fmaj7/A is a first inversion major seven chord, regardless of how its voiced.
 
#38
And second an Am/F# SOUNDS EXACTLY LIKE AN F#min7(b5).
Those are the exact same sound but written differently.
Click to expand...

Very technically speaking, an Am/F# actually gives you more information than an F#min7(b5), and could be considered "different", albeit not functionally so. The sound of the triad on top is what the composer could want, which would force you into a specific way of voicing it. For example, in F#min7(b5), you could have the voicing C F# E A, but that's a no go for Am/F#. Especially if you're doing a sort of line cliché in the bass Am - Am/G# - Am/G - Am/F#. This is why, however annoying it may be, there could be valid use for chord symbols like Eb/C or things like that.
 
#39
The original post asked about a chord spelt A C F - this is indeed as many have said a first inversion F major chord, but in the context of a tonal centre of A minor, and n this sequence as in the James Bond theme:

A,C,E

A,C,F

A,C,F sharp

it surely can only be seen as an Am+ chord

To my mind that sequence should be written as Am, Am+, Am6 - to write Am, F/A, Am6 would be confusing.
 
#40
pete honeyman said:
The original post asked about a chord spelt A C F - this is indeed as many have said a first inversion F major chord, but in the context of a tonal centre of A minor, and n this sequence as in the James Bond theme:

A,C,E

A,C,F

A,C,F sharp

it surely can only be seen as an Am+ chord

To my mind that sequence should be written as Am, Am+, Am6 - to write Am, F/A, Am6 would be confusing.
Click to expand...

+1
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back