Amp line out advice

[GuiTuber]

I'm new to the world of live sound and all, but I do have a basic understanding of things.

I have a question about what I was thinking of doing regarding my set up at our gigs.

Our group consists of two guitarists, both acoustic, percussion (couple djembes, couple congas), a harp player and myself on (soon to receive) electric bass. Everyone to this point has plugged straight in to the mixer. When I start using my electric bass, I'll add my amp to the chain.

I have a Rumble V3 40 that has a line out. I'd like to use that as my input in to our mixer and use the amp as my monitor. I've since discovered the line out is post-EQ/Volume.

As far as my tone goes, I like the warm, simple sound. It fits with our music and I don't expect to get any fancier. If I did, I'd likely do it with a separate pedal.

What I was wondering, wouldn't it be better to use a DI to separate my board signal from my monitor? Or is the variable signal coming from the amp acceptable?

If I need more volume from my monitor, and I'm using it's line out, I'd be turning myself up in the mix as well, until somebody turned me down on the mixer. That doesn't sound like a desirable situation.

Maybe I'm missing something and my amp will be quite acceptable as a DI, but my understanding of things tells me otherwise.

Any advice and/or clarification would be greatly appreciated. And if I've left something out, let me know. I tried to cover everything up front.

 

[ggunn]

You've pretty much got it. If your amp DI is post EQ (and not switchable) then any change you make to the amp's settings will affect the house. Also, the tone you really like from your amp may or may not translate well to the FOH mix. Using a DI from your bass will alleviate that, though, of course (duh) any changes you make at the bass will still get out to the mix. There are bass players on both sides of the issue.

 

[GuiTuber]

And that's what I was thinking about when adding any kind of effects in front of the DI.

I've read all this stuff about sound guys loving the signal from a DI because they can control the mix better, which I understand. But if I add an effect or some eq (even it's just the tone knob on the bass), wouldn't that affect the mix? It seems like the sound guy would be chasing you all night.

It's good for me to hear all sides because I want to hear the different ways people solve similar problems. I can understand the principles of things, but I don't have any real world experience yet. That's where all you fine folks come in.

 

[s0c9]

I have a Rumble V3 40 that has a line out. I'd like to use that as my input in to our mixer and use the amp as my monitor. I've since discovered the line out is post-EQ/Volume.

I highly doubt the line out is POST Master Volume.. I have never seen that on a Direct Out.. so turning up the amp will NOT change the volume of the LINE OUT... per the Owner manual it states "Balanced output to connect to external devices such as PA systems and recording consoles. The level and tone of the LINE OUT signal are affected by all preamp controls, including GAIN."
This means it's post-EQ, but not Post volume... it should have a fixed "volume" unless you crank up the gain or EQ level somewhere..

What I was wondering, wouldn't it be better to use a DI to separate my board signal from my monitor? Or is the variable signal coming from the amp acceptable?

You can use a DI, but I'd keep it simple and use the LINE OUT from the amp.. less cable, no need to carry a DI, etc.

If I need more volume from my monitor, and I'm using it's line out, I'd be turning myself up in the mix as well, until somebody turned me down on the mixer. That doesn't sound like a desirable situation.

Maybe I'm missing something and my amp will be quite acceptable as a DI, but my understanding of things tells me otherwise.

See my first comment above...

 

[GuiTuber]

I coulda swore, when I connected the amp to my USB audio interface that the volume went up when I turned the amp up. I will check it again.

I'm confused on the terminology from the owner's manual: "The level and tone of the LINE OUT signal are affected by all preamp controls, including GAIN." I understand the use of the word "tone", but if "level" is not volume, that does it mean? I assumed since the manual said "including GAIN" that "level" doesn't mean "gain", and it must mean volume.

 

[ggunn]

I coulda swore, when I connected the amp to my USB audio interface that the volume went up when I turned the amp up. I will check it again.

I'm confused on the terminology from the owner's manual: "The level and tone of the LINE OUT signal are affected by all preamp controls, including GAIN." I understand the use of the word "tone", but if "level" is not volume, that does it mean? I assumed since the manual said "including GAIN" that "level" doesn't mean "gain", and it must mean volume.

If your amp does not have a master volume and the only volume control is in the preamp section, then a post EQ line out will probably be affected by your volume setting.

Some amps have both gain and volume controls or they may have volume and master volume controls, which are the same thing. In the first case the gain is the volume on the preamp and the volume is the volume on the power amp, in the second case, volume is the volume of the preamp and master volume is the volume of the power amp. In both cases the first control affects the line out if it is post EQ and the second one doesn't.

 

[GuiTuber]

They are labeled "Gain" and "Volume".

I just tested it again and the "Volume" does affect the line out signal.

I hooked the line out from the amp to one of the channels on my Focusrite Saffire USB audio interface and observing both the LEDs and with headphones, with the volume on the amp all the way down, there is nothing making it to the Saffire. Turn it up and then you can hear something.

With that in mind, if I don't want to affect the level going to the mixer, a DI would be the ticket. Correct?

I got this amp for the line out (instead of the Rumble 25), even though I had to spend an extra $100. The idea was to use the amp as a DI to the mixer and then I would also use it as my monitor. At the time, I wasn't thinking about the volume control, either for the line out or the speaker. But as I have learned more and more over the last week or so, and plugging in the amp and testing it, I now believe my best solution is to get a DI/preamp, to shape my tone to the mixer, and one with a secondary out so I can go to my amp as an independent monitor.

What I didn't know, was whether there was a way around the volume controlling the level to the line out so that I wouldn't need a DI.

 

[ggunn]

They are labeled "Gain" and "Volume".

I just tested it again and the "Volume" does affect the line out signal.

I hooked the line out from the amp to one of the channels on my Focusrite Saffire USB audio interface and observing both the LEDs and with headphones, with the volume on the amp all the way down, there is nothing making it to the Saffire. Turn it up and then you can hear something.

That is unusual, but I guess it happens. My Traynor combo has an XLR output but nothing I do to any of the knobs on the face of the amp changes the signal from the XLR output at all. Some amps have a little pre-post button on the back next to the line out; yours doesn't?

 

[GuiTuber]

That is unusual, but I guess it happens. My Traynor combo has an XLR output but nothing I do to any of the knobs on the face of the amp changes the signal from the XLR output at all. Some amps have a little pre-post button on the back next to the line out; yours doesn't?

Nope, no button. Even the higher end Rumbles do not have it.

So that's what makes them lighter!

 

[s0c9]

They are labeled "Gain" and "Volume".

I just tested it again and the "Volume" does affect the line out signal.

I hooked the line out from the amp to one of the channels on my Focusrite Saffire USB audio interface and observing both the LEDs and with headphones, with the volume on the amp all the way down, there is nothing making it to the Saffire. Turn it up and then you can hear something.

Rob,
The manual I'm looking at has them labeled "Gain" and "Master".

so... my question is.. which line out are you using... there's the 1/4" external speaker out (don't use that except to run another speaker), the 1/4" effects send, the 1/4" headphone out and the XLR line out.

Per the manual, the (XLR) Line Out - "Balanced output to connect to external devices such as PA systems and recording consoles. The level and tone of the LINE OUT signal are affected by all preamp controls, including GAIN." If you are using this to connect to your Saffire, then the Master volume should not have any effect on signal level..

If you are using one of the other connections, please let us know..

 

[GuiTuber]

Rob,
The manual I'm looking at has them labeled "Gain" and "Master".

so... my question is.. which line out are you using... there's the 1/4" external speaker out (don't use that except to run another speaker), the 1/4" effects send, the 1/4" headphone out and the XLR line out.

Per the manual, the (XLR) Line Out - "Balanced output to connect to external devices such as PA systems and recording consoles. The level and tone of the LINE OUT signal are affected by all preamp controls, including GAIN." If you are using this to connect to your Saffire, then the Master volume should not have any effect on signal level..

If you are using one of the other connections, please let us know..

It is the line out. The Rumble 40 has no other output except for the 1/8" headphone jack.

I had pointed out that the manual text says "level and tone....including GAIN". It would be redundant to have the word "level" and "gain" mean the same thing in a sentence structured like that, i.e. "...including GAIN". So "level" must be referring to master volume.

 

[TimmyP]

He's correct about the output being post everything - it's a nuisance that I have run into on a couple of shows. Just get a decent DI and you'll be OK.

 

[4Mal]

+1

I recently snagged an active DI from guitar center for about 55 to 60 bucks. Birthday present to me and my keyboard player. Her birthday, present to me in that she can carry it as opposed to to me laying down one of mine... Anyway. It is fine. Good in fact. Will it last as long as one of my Radial or Countryman dI's - jury is out but it seems well constructed. For the dough, I would recommend it. It is one of their house brand Live Wire or something like that.

I would do an active of you are planning to put pedals in front of it... Of course that means phantom power to make the DI work. Many boards have it so probably not a worry, might be a good idea to check though.

To your question about volume jumps and the sound guy having to chase your channel around... You need to set your pedals up so that your overall volume and the mount of apparent bass stays in a reasonable close range to your un affected sound.

As a sound guy I will tell you that if a band thinks I am going to chase down every pedal nuance they introduce... They are mistaken... Unless of course they are hiring me, paying for my attendance at sessions, rehearsals, etc ... As nobody actually does that, band members need to police their own dynamics ... My crystal ball does not include what is going to happen when you (or your guitarist) jumps on that pedal... I'll react, but slowly and when you get off the pedal, it will take a while for me to react again so the bottom will fall out for a while. Do remember there are 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 of you guys and I only have 2 eyes, 2 ears... So it is not that I am unwilling, it is that I'm overmatched...

 

[s0c9]

He's correct about the output being post everything - it's a nuisance that I have run into on a couple of shows.

Wow Mr. P. seems like a massive oversight on Fender's part and not very useful as a direct out.. but knowing you from elsewhere (prosound), I believe you..

 

[robert_stuart]

I highly doubt the line out is POST Master Volume

My Fender Rumble v3 is post master volume. Makes the line out useless.

 

[GuiTuber]

I recently purchased a GK Plex. It's DI has a pre/post switch. Now that we're using IEM's, I send a signal from the DI out, with the switch set to 'pre', to the mixer and then send the output of the preamp to my Rumble 200's effects return. I use the Plex to completely control my tone through the Rumble. I use the DI so I can here myself in the IEM system.

 

[robert_stuart]

I recently purchased a GK Plex.

That looks like a cool little device; has everything you need, really. I use something similar for upright, a Fishman Platinum Pro EQ. I'd like to have something similar for electric. I'm currently using a v1 Sansamp pedal, but have been thinking about the new Ampeg SCR-DI.

The thing is, I do like the Fender amp's tone a lot better than the sansamp plugged into the effects return.

 

[GuiTuber]

I went to a jam party Saturday night and ended up taking my Rumble and my little Hartke practice amp (another bass player was going to show up and needed an amp). I didn't bring the Plex, I just played through the Rumble.

The first notes I plucked when I turned it on, I was reminded of the warm tone I get going straight through the Rumble.

I can dial in the same sort of tone with the Plex but there have been venues I've used it at where I need to EQ some of that warmth out, otherwise it sounds like mud. I have the same problem with the Rumble so it's not inherent to the Plex.

I do love the Plex though. It has everything I wanted if I was going to build a pedal board, not to mention the pre/post DI out and the USB port. The DI has been especially useful (considering the post-everything line out on the Rumble) now that we're using the IEM system.

When I'm finally able to build my pedal board, all I want to get is an envelope filter and an octaver. I can put those and the Plex on a Pedaltrain Nano and continue to keep my rig down to my bass, the Rumble and an extra bag. If our band were to procure a better mixer and a sub, I'd leave the amp at home and really go lightweight.