Amp placement and orientation on stage

[juggahnaught]

When you play live with PA support for bass and drums, how do you and your bandmates set up amplifiers on stage?

Does everyone orient their amps forward, towards the audience?

Does anyone do a "side fill" setup where you point your amp across the stage? Do your guitarists do the same thing?

Asking because I'm thinking about live sound optimization - you want a good stage sound, but if everything is miced up and the PA's doing the heavy lifting....amps become monitors. I side-filled my wedge at the last gig and it seemed to work really well. Our guitarist has side-filled before and it's worked well - last gig he didn't. I'm wondering if both of us side-filling will cause any weird distortions with, uh, sound waves "crashing" in the middle, I suppose. Our poor singer...

I welcome all replies! What do you do and why do you do it? What works and what doesn't? Sound engineers, please chime in and let me know that I'm an idiot!

 

[Zbysek]

Does everyone orient their amps forward, towards the audience?

Yes, most of the time...espeacially in band with drums where I play bass guitar...

Does anyone do a "side fill" setup where you point your amp across the stage?

I do this only in one of my bands. Semi-acoustic band with cajon. My bandmates want to hear bass...and I want to prevent them from putting bass into their floor monitors in order to keep stage volume on low level (we usually play small rooms)

Do your guitarists do the same thing?

No

 

[Wasnex]

When you play live with PA support for bass and drums, how do you and your bandmates set up amplifiers on stage?

Does everyone orient their amps forward, towards the audience?

Does anyone do a "side fill" setup where you point your amp across the stage? Do your guitarists do the same thing?

Asking because I'm thinking about live sound optimization - you want a good stage sound, but if everything is miced up and the PA's doing the heavy lifting....amps become monitors. I side-filled my wedge at the last gig and it seemed to work really well. Our guitarist has side-filled before and it's worked well - last gig he didn't. I'm wondering if both of us side-filling will cause any weird distortions with, uh, sound waves "crashing" in the middle, I suppose. Our poor singer...

I welcome all replies! What do you do and why do you do it? What works and what doesn't? Sound engineers, please chime in and let me know that I'm an idiot!

I typically elevate my cab to about waist level and tilt the speaker back so it is aimed approximately at my head.

Here's why: Low frequencies are essentially omnidirectional and the speaker will begin the exhibit pattern control as the frequency increases. Depending upon the design of the speaker, it may get beamy in the mids, so aiming the cab at my head is intended to ensure I hear the full range of the speaker, and that the sound travels directly from the cab to my ears instead of bouncing around first. The ideas is to monitor at the lowest possible volume so I don't interfere with the PA. If anyone else wants to hear bass they ask for it in their monitor.

I usually run with my amp behind me. I usually don't ask for bass in my monitor(s) as I find it tends to fight with my amp for dominance in the low end. High passing the monitor can mitigate this problem. If I do run bass in my monitor(s) I find that getting the spacing right so the sound from the monitor(s) and my amp arrives at my ears at the same time can create nice a surround sound sensation. If you don't get the spacing right, the ghost image will collapse and you will only hear one speaker rather than experiencing the illusion that you are surrounded by the sound. Obviously if you move around much you can't take advantage of this.

If my amp needs to carry the room because the PA is insufficient, I may put my amp on the floor. It really depends on how boomy the room is, how loud I need to play, and how powerful my amp is. I usually prefer the sound with my speakers elevated as this reduces the low mids a bit.

 

[Gigas444]

I use a pedalboard with an EQ (Caline 10 band EQ) and a Pre (Darkglass Alpha/Omega), at the end of the chain I have a DI/cab sim (Mooer Micro DI), i send the unbalanced output to my combo (markbass mini cmd 121 p) which is placed on a stand and pointed at me, not towards the audience, then i send the balanced output to the PA, this way I can have guitars and voice only in floor monitors (which most of the times aren't suited to reproduce bass...), drums can usually be heard (yes i play metal, so drummer is some kind of blacksmith) and I can hear what I'm playing directly from my amp without, this way you're not causing any trouble to the technician (never received a complaint from them when i began to use this system)

 

[rufus.K]

Usually its a personal monitor, pointed somewhat towards a bandmate.
Im always worried about comb filtering though

 

[EastCoastThump]

Depends how loud the stage rig needs to be, what the FOH is doing, and how stage and FOH are interacting.

I've had some gigs where the bass stage rig was sidefill (the stage rig itself, as opposed to bass in the sound company's sidefills). But almost all my gigs w/ stage rigs have me placing them in the conventional backline positions, either to the L or R of the drumkit, or else a player or two or three over from the drums.

And then a handful of weird set-ups, to get necessary stage coverage while reducing interference b/w stage rig and FOH:

• gigs with my stage rig augmented by a 2nd small satellite bass cab for the players on the opposite side of the stage
• gigs where the stage rig was placed behind a (stage-encroaching) corner FOH stack and angled back at me and the drummer
• gigs where I used a PA-style full range bass cab raised to my ear level on a tripod

 

[RJI777]

I typically ... [EVERYTHING IN-BETWEEN]
... the low mids a bit.

I'm not saying the author covers every conceivable aspect regarding amp placement and live performances, but it's a damned good post; very relevant and well presented. At least that's my opinion as a time served bass and guitar player, active since the early 70s and, despite a significant break, back in the saddle, so to speak. I'm finding the music, the gear, etc., to be very different now, but the advice given in the above post is most definitely worth reading (two or three times, if I were you).

 

[juggahnaught]

I typically elevate my cab to about waist level and tilt the speaker back so it is aimed approximately at my head.

Here's why: Low frequencies are essentially omnidirectional and the speaker will begin the exhibit pattern control as the frequency increases. Depending upon the design of the speaker, it may get beamy in the mids, so aiming the cab at my head is intended to ensure I hear the full range of the speaker, and that the sound travels directly from the cab to my ears instead of bouncing around first. The ideas is to monitor at the lowest possible volume so I don't interfere with the PA. If anyone else wants to hear bass they ask for it in their monitor.

I usually run with my amp behind me. I usually don't ask for bass in my monitor(s) as I find it tends to fight with my amp for dominance in the low end. High passing the monitor can mitigate this problem. If I do run bass in my monitor(s) I find that getting the spacing right so the sound from the monitor(s) and my amp arrives at my ears at the same time can create nice a surround sound sensation. If you don't get the spacing right, the ghost image will collapse and you will only hear one speaker rather than experiencing the illusion that you are surrounded by the sound. Obviously if you move around much you can't take advantage of this.

If my amp needs to carry the room because the PA is insufficient, I may put my amp on the floor. It really depends on how boomy the room is, how loud I need to play, and how powerful my amp is. I usually prefer the sound with my speakers elevated as this reduces the low mids a bit.

I'm not saying the author covers every conceivable aspect regarding amp placement and live performances, but it's a damned good post; very relevant and well presented. At least that's my opinion as a time served bass and guitar player, active since the early 70s and, despite a significant break, back in the saddle, so to speak. I'm finding the music, the gear, etc., to be very different now, but the advice given in the above post is most definitely worth reading (two or three times, if I were you).

The reason I asked this question is because I use an amp modeler into a QSC K12.2. The thing is loud for sure, but it's not sub-frequency loud like some bass cabs. Additionally, although it's a great speaker, it's still a single 12. As such, I always run to FOH (I'm in an area where most if not all venues have house sound systems; the QSC can definitely cover the smaller ones).

I have the option to really use my speaker as a wedge for only me, or try to actually provide stage sound for bass (but not try to carry the room - the PA will always do that better with a better mix and better room optimization, in my opinion). I have the option to sidefill, and since I have bass frequencies but not crazy sub-frequencies, there's a lot of directionality to the sound (I also run a tone in this band that is very clear - I'm using a guitar amp model into a bass cab, so it's not necessarily your typical low-end boom).

My guitarist has side-filled before, but he's been experimenting with drive pedals that clear up his sound through his amps so that he can achieve his tone at lower volumes. (He's awesome.) So I'm wondering if it's worth it to try to carry the stage with my setup, which is doable, or use it as a personal wedge, which is also doable. It really depends on my bandmates, I suppose, so as long as they can get bass through the monitors either one will work.

Actually - typing this, I think I've answered my own question. If the FOH can run bass through the monitors for everyone who needs it, I'll use my speaker as a wedge. If not, I'll let it carry stage sound (but not FOH) and side-fill as necessary, and let the PA do the heavy lifting for FOH unless it's a really small venue.

 

[musicman7722]

When I run sound I always require all stage amps tilt way back or shoot across as a side fill. I dodn't always get my way but you don't get what you don't ask for.

 

[tshapiro]

My bass rig is in the traditional rear of stage position pointing at me. 2 410s stacked so no need for a tilt back stand.

Guitarist has a 2x12 combo on a tilt back stand pointing at him. If he doesn't use the tilt back stand he ends up getting way loud.

 

[tarp21]

All use IEM’s. Drummer wants my bass on stage. All the rest of us care less including me as I have high quality in ears and always stereo. So a small 22 lb Fender Rumble 100 pointed at the drummer from the backline is sufficient small to medium venues. Anything larger he gets a 410 cab or Ampeg 210.

 

[pfschim]

Out of many years of habit, I set up to the drummers hi hat side (left side of the set). I tilt my bass rig up with a tilt back stand if I'm using my 1x12, or an ampwedge arrangement when I use a 212, so I can really fully hear my rig. I prefer my monitor wedge (typically either a 2 way 8" or 10") right in front of me, without any bass in my monitor mix (I get enough from my rig and from the other stage monitors). The bands I'm in go for very easy stage volume, and generally there is a very pleasantly high quality and complete soundfield on stage (I really like being in that stage mix sweet spot). Occasionally I will go out front in a venue at sound check just to hear what the audience is getting ... sometimes it's pretty much like the stage sound, sometimes not ... it really depends on the ears/experience/abilities of the venue sound techs.

I've been on a lot of big festival type stages with serious backlines and PA setups that had sidefill, my memory of those situations is that the stage sound was mostly about the same with or without individual wedges, just maybe a bit bigger soundfield to play in. If it gets too loud on stage, I have no reluctance to pop in some -15dB earplugs to keep my hearing intact. Don't have to do that often though, which is cool.

 

[the low one]

I prefer my amp behind me if I use one. It just feels right to me.
Used to play a regular gig where the FOH sound guy insisted all amps were in front and pointed back away from the audience so he could get a cleaner FOH mix. I understood why but didn't like it. That gig now is all IEM so no longer a problem.

 

[two fingers]

My stage rig is a Mesa TT800 and Subway 115. I usually put it at the far back corner of the stage facing forward. (We usually play small-to-medium stages.)

I am ridiculously easy to work with from a sound guy standpoint. (I run FOH from time to time so I understand their world.) So volume is rarely an issue. We run in-ears. But that rig is so small and powerful that it's just too easy to bring. And the preamp section sounds amazing in FOH.

Our guitarist uses various modelers and either a wedge pointed back at himself or a powered guitar cab. He's usually not too loud either.

Our secret weapon is a drummer with DYNAMICS. Sure, dude can play loud when we get to the "big part" of a song, or the end of the night. But he can also play quietly!

 

[Groove Doctor]

Bass thru the PA?
My 200W 1x10” combo (AER Bass One), DI out to PA.
Set up near the drummer, pointing 45° out towards my side of stage, aimed away from the singers/their mics.

No Bass in PA?
700W head & 212” cab, pushed as far back as possible, pointed straight out at the audience for Lots of stage volume and to fill the room.