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Ampeg PF-210HE double baffle mod

H

henfjel

Nov 30, 2010
24
0
Norway
#1
While planning to build a B15 cab, this thought crossed my mind while I was looking at my PF-210HE today! A couple years ago I recieved that cab, brand new from a dealer in Norway. I was not really statisfied with the sound of it then, but I had to bring it with me to a small festival I was about to leave for so it stuck with me and I never bothered selling it or returning it. I always felt I was missing some 15" bottom-end, and I quite like the sound of the double-baffle B15 cabs ampeg used to make so I decided to make one myself, after obtaining plans and measurements of it.
So while looking at those plans, I realised; why not mod the cab I already have to be double-baffled? I thought about porting it a while back, but I put that thought to bed early, but I think this can be a cool mod! Along with a custom built B15 cab I think a ported PF-210HE will make a fine rig together with the PF-500 head I own, which i btw really love the sound of!

So here is the plan:
As it can be seen in the picture below, you have the ports around the speaker-hole in the B15 cab. I will take the 210 cab and make similar ports, although I will have to omit two of the ports since there are two speaker-holes and they are so close to the edge of the cab.
B15SBCABGRILLOFFLOW.jpg


As you can se, there isn't room for the same amount of ports as the B15 as I want them to be located in the same place they are in that cab.
IMG_0767.jpg


And to compliment the ports, I'll replate the current grille with a grille like the one in the picture below this one to get the wanted effect (of course with two speaker-holes that matches the cab instead of just one 15" one..).
IMG_0769.jpg

bfl4.jpg


Won't be starting this in at least a couple of weeks but looking forward to it!

Any thoughts on this?
 
#2
Are the 10" drivers okay to use in a ported cab? Adding ports to a sealed cab could jeopardize the drivers if they are not designed to be used in a sealed cab. I'm sure the speaker experts will chime in here....
 
#3
So far I haven't found anything that suggests otherwise. I've seen a couple of people that have ported their PF210 cab on here and as far as I know, neither has had any problems.

But if someone with a little more advance speaker-knowledge wants to chime in I'd like to get some opinions on this! :)
 
#4
The double baffle cabs look cool, but honestly, there's nothing about them that can't be duplicated with modern porting methods, and the modern methods are a lot easier to do. Wish I could give you exact instructions on how to do it, but I'm no expert on porting, though I do know that much.
 
#5
Jimmy's right in that you could port it easier just using a couple of pipes or tubes as they'd be hidden behind the grillcloth anyway.

If you build the double baffle but omit any of the holes, that box will end up being tuned lower than the 15 cab. That may or may not be a good thing depending on how those 10's behave in there. You won't be able to predict that first as you won't be able to find specs on the OEM drivers, so, I'd just shoot for something between 40 & 50hz and adjust by ear from there, though the 15 cab is likely tuned a good bit higher than that, just by looking at it.

You can find the tuning frequency by laying the cab on its back, putting some kernels of rice on the cone, and running test tones through it. The tuning frequency is whichever one the rice stops dancing.

There are plenty of websites that'll give you test tones, or there is a phone app called True Tone that's pretty handy.
 
#6
JimmyM said:
The double baffle cabs look cool, but honestly, there's nothing about them that can't be duplicated with modern porting methods, and the modern methods are a lot easier to do. Wish I could give you exact instructions on how to do it, but I'm no expert on porting, though I do know that much.
Click to expand...

I realise that, and I have considered porting using pipes or tubes, but I came to the conclution that it will be more fun to give the double-baffle a go. I have the tools and the knowledge to do it, so why not?.. (Retorical question! I guess there are several reasons not to do it, but I've kinda decided on doing it this way anyway)

will33 said:
Jimmy's right in that you could port it easier just using a couple of pipes or tubes as they'd be hidden behind the grillcloth anyway.

If you build the double baffle but omit any of the holes, that box will end up being tuned lower than the 15 cab. That may or may not be a good thing depending on how those 10's behave in there. You won't be able to predict that first as you won't be able to find specs on the OEM drivers, so, I'd just shoot for something between 40 & 50hz and adjust by ear from there, though the 15 cab is likely tuned a good bit higher than that, just by looking at it.

You can find the tuning frequency by laying the cab on its back, putting some kernels of rice on the cone, and running test tones through it. The tuning frequency is whichever one the rice stops dancing.

There are plenty of websites that'll give you test tones, or there is a phone app called True Tone that's pretty handy.
Click to expand...

I see! I'll look into that once I have the time before I start any porting.
 
#8
Hi to my fellow talk bassers! I just bought a PF 500 and PF 210HE, got a great deal on a mint used one. I played through one at Guitar Center, to just check it out. I liked the head, but the cabinet is remarkably lacking in a fairly critical area. Bass response. It's really noticeable., no punch at all on the 'E' and my 5 was just peeing against the tide, even with the bass set at 12 o'clock. Mine, and the one at GC both did this... so I'm thinking all of them are probably like this. The low end extension capabilities of the drivers, and/ or the cabinet. I already have two Eminence Neo drivers, that I'm going to replace the originals with. I'd like to port it while I'm doing so. Has anyone done a swap like this, or anyone have a port size optimized, for this cabinet, and Eminence 2010 lf NEO's?
Thanks!
 
#9
A buddy of mine on here did something similar with the PF115he. Honestly, it sounds like you'd have been happier with the PF115he or PF115lf, both of which go lower than the PF210he. I happen to like low tuned basses with cabs voiced more like the PF210he but to each their own. But yeah, you can cut a hole in the cab and port it if you wish, and it would probably turn out pretty good. If I'm not mistaken, this buddy just got a stock port tube from Ampeg and hoped for the best and it worked out, but he also used the stock speakers, I believe. And I believe he might have used two tubes. He did it on the back but port location is immaterial as long as you don't have it right in back of a speaker. The speaker experts would tell you to run the cab's internal cubic volume and the 2010 through WinISD and it would tell you what you need, but I can't figure out WinISD to save my life. If nobody can tell you exactly what to do, Eminence themselves might have some ideas. Me, I'm clueless. But it's a pretty big cab for a 210 so you should be able to mod it into what you want.
 
#10
My experience with Ampeg, goes back to 1968, when I first owned one. I've owned a lot of them. P.S., I grew up in Woodside, Queens, N.Y. City. Any Ampeg experts will tell you the significance of my home neighborhood.
My experience with infinite baffle Ampeg cabinets goes WAY back- I owned a 1969 SVT- with the original screw on dolly cabinet. I also had a 'Towel Bar' cab. Those cabs have four, 2-10 cabinets in one box. The 32 ohm CTS 30 watt original speakers surely are inferior to the drivers in the PF 210 HE... or ARE they? And those SVT's cabs were low end handling monsters... never heard one fart. I had a 120 watt B-410 combo- in the late 70's, loved it- it was also a sealed cabinet, with those same 30 watt 32 ohm CTS's. It is a mystery as to why the powerful PF 500 head, into this PF cab cannot handle even average amounts of bass. It has a kind of attenuation I've never heard a cabinet do before. Even cabinets that are known for not much low end- like my Peavey 210 PRO cab, and SWR Goliath Juniors, can handle some normal bass down to 40 hz. I will port the cab... but as a control, I'll try swapping the drivers first- a totally reversible mod. OR, if anyone wants to trade straight up a mint PF115he, for my mint PF210he... it'll likely save me some hassles!
 
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#13
Same price, actually, but yeah, those are the big differences. Not sure about speakers.

Anyway, define the volume level of "handle normal bass down to 40 hz." Every cab has its limits, especially small ones like the PF210. And I agree that the CTS speakers really have a sound, but they wouldn't last 10 seconds in the PF210he using a PF500, even at my piddly volumes.
 
#14
Jimmy, The point I was making about the low watt CTS speakers, is that they did not do what these drivers in the new cab do, and I do understand the amplifier power rating and the speaker power capacity. I was getting at the relationship of the drivers to the SVT and B410's sealed box, producing strong even bass with the provided power. The cabinet I own, and the one on the floor at Guitar Center do the same thing. All the other combo amps in the store, produced a fairly even bass signal, all the way down to the open 'E' string, 40 hz., using any of the basses available on the wall. Some were more powerful, had 12's, or 1-15.. all name brands, including the new Ampeg BA combos. Turning the various amps' volume up produced predictable breakup, and farting. I think that is pretty average, as I have an Acoustic combo, and a GK MB 150 that sound great, but you can push them into clipping and distortion if you get excessive. Both are gig worthy, and I have used the GK often. The unusual thing about this 210he cabinet, is that it seems to literally run out of breath, as if you were trying to talk and ran out of breath, resulting in dropped off words. Any notes played below 'A' at what would be a reasonable volume, like all the You Tube demo videos, using conservative settings by a 40 year professional with a Fender J bass, should not do that. Please understand, I'm the last one to bash Ampeg! Hey they, and I are both from WOODSIDE! I just want to know what is the deal here?
 
#15
I don't know...I thought the PF210 did as reasonable a job as you could expect myself. It's tuned a little higher in the lows than the other PF cabs but not out of line with an 810e. I wonder if something's going on with yours, like a loose speaker screw or something causing an air leak.
 
#17
Well, night time- and cabin fever- ah, those idle hands doing the Devil's work! lol!
I have officially retired my long unused Avatar B410 neo cabinet. It now is relegated to 'unused driver storage/speaker holder' status. My PF 210HE now has two Eminence 2510 Avatar first gen neos. 300 watts, 8 ohms each in parallel, giving a total of 600 watt handling, and 4 ohms load. That means, When I field test my PF 500 with this new setup- I will be getting the full power from the amplifier. I'll keep you guys posted as to the results.
An observation here...The Ampeg cabinet is built REALLY WELL! Solid as a rock. I have no idea why the factory 10's simply dropped off at lower frequencies- something I have never heard before in all my time playing bass. This speaker swap- is a 'control' to find out if the issue is the cabinet tuning- or the drivers.
When the neighbors leave for work... and I wake up and have at least two cups of coffee... I'll test it.
 
#19
Well, too busy to test it yesterday... and they left this afternoon, so- bombs away!
First up- my Fender Japan lefty Candy Apple Red P-bass. A dark, punchy bass with stainless rounds. Made this amp and speakers lose steam in the seller's apartment at low volume. Plugged in, bass control at 12 O'clock, mid switch on '1' Mid dial at 2 O'clock ultra low engaged, treble at 1 O'clock, ultra high off... no input pad. WOW. Loud, clean, and all the notes actually come out of the cabinet down to open 'E' with no strange 'doppler' effect! Then, my Edwards 5, in my profile pic... A clean, articulate bass with more tonal options than I ever use- three Alembic wmxy pickups, two pan pots, and the Stanley Clarke tone circuit. D'Addario stainless rounds. Same thing, even down to low 'B'- a usable gig rig now... but it definitely needs porting, the speakers seem like they want to move more air. I just had a gut feeling that the drivers were not capable of handling the low end this head is capable of producing. I'm going to keep this cabinet...
So, anyone that can help me on port size and shape, please feel free to advise me.
 
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