Ampeg PF-50T which cabinet and speaker?

[Elvis Nixon]

Hello folks, I have a PF-50T coming and need to get a suitable cabinet and speaker. I’ll be using this rig strictly for recording. I’m hoping to find a non-fliptop early B-15 style of cabinet ideally unloaded (unless there’s a cab that matches what I want out of the speaker). I want a vintage sounding very efficient 15” speaker. I wish more speakers listed the sensitivity in the spec sheets. I’m hoping for something in the high 90’s or better. As you all may know, for every 3db SPL more sensitive a speaker is, it’s the same as doubling your amplifier power. With 50 tube watts to work with, I want a very efficient speaker like the Altecs in the B-15s were. Any suggestions for a cabinet and speaker combo would be great!

 

[Paulabass]

You are recording. What does volume level have to do with it?
You are going to do much better performance and price wise to buy a cab with a speaker that was designed in conjunction with the cab. Just putting a speaker in a cab is a great way to a) Make a terrible sounding cab b) Severely effect the power handling of the speaker. Don't get caught up in efficiency, in a recording rig sound is everything, and ANY amp will create enough volume to record with (that's why we record with headphones on). If you need louder, perhaps you did not choose wisely in the first place.

 

[Elvis Nixon]

You are recording. What does volume level have to do with it?
You are going to do much better performance and price wise to buy a cab with a speaker that was designed in conjunction with the cab. Just putting a speaker in a cab is a great way to a) Make a terrible sounding cab b) Severely effect the power handling of the speaker. Don't get caught up in efficiency, in a recording rig sound is everything, and ANY amp will create enough volume to record with (that's why we record with headphones on). If you need louder, perhaps you did not choose wisely in the first place.

I’m not talking about volume, I’m talking clean headroom. I buy Marshall 4X12 cabs and choose speakers to suit what I want all the time. I use a Avalon DI and mic the cab with a sennheiser md421 and a Neumann U87 room mic.

 

[Elvis Nixon]

The obvious choice would be Ampeg PF-115 which is designed to pair perfectly with that head. The PF-112HLF also has a stellar reputation (though obviously it's 12" instead of 15").

For non-Ampeg options, I hear a lot of great things about the cabinets from fliptops.net.

I have the 20 watt PF-20t. The main cabinet(s) I use for it is either 1 or 2 of my Carvin 115MBE (which sadly are out of production). Someday when budget permits, and gigs start back up again, I'm hoping to commission a 1x15 cabinet (which spec's at 103db sensitivity!) from David at Revsound. He's really fun to talk with on the phone, and has the materials to make vintage Ampeg-looking cabinets. Highly recommended!

Now that’s along the lines of what I’m wanting. Not crazy about the horn in the Ampeg PF-115. I would imagine the speaker and crossover were designed to sound best with a horn. Even if the horn can be turned off, there’s still the crossover in the circuit. I will check out both companies you mentioned, sounds what I’m looking for. 103db! that’s more efficient than a Toyota Prius.

 

[two fingers]

Honestly, if I were using this in the studio, I would take the polar opposite approach. I would find the most inefficient speaker I could.

Why?

Well, at lower volumes it will be plenty clean. If you need more gain, you have it in your mixer (be it analog or DAW). BUT, if you should want a little grunt, you can get it without silly high volumes using an inefficient speaker.

I own an Ashdown LB30 (30W) tube head. I ran it with an Epifani UL410 and still run it with an Ampeg 610. It gets stupid loud. You don't need headroom in a studio. Your mic will be inches from the cone. Even at ridiculously low volumes it will be more than plenty. However, if you get a very efficient cab, even with little gain, it will be too loud for the studio.

Virtually every recording you ever heard that was done with an old fliptop had a tiny bit of mild drive going. There was nothing "clean" about it. If you want squeaky clean, just use a DI and be done with it.


I'm exaggerating to make a point. But your post reads "I want a tube amp so I can make it sound nothing like a tube amp" to me. Who gets a tube amp for clean? Tube compression, sag, and even a tiny bit of distortion is the whole point. Otherwise why bother?

 

[Paulabass]

I’m not talking about volume, I’m talking clean headroom. I buy Marshall 4X12 cabs and choose speakers to suit what I want all the time. I use a Avalon DI and mic the cab with a sennheiser md421 and a Neumann U87 room mic.

That doesn't work with bass cabs, but you've made up you mind.

 

[Elvis Nixon]

It would also be well worth your time to browse through this thread:

Official Ampeg Portaflex Club

Thanks, I will read that thread. It’s a biggie, but I’ve got nothing but time for now. I’ve kept my studio closed and am looking to do some changes and additions that I never had time for.

 

[el jeffe bass]

I get great tone with my PF20T/PF112HLF. Great tone for recording, plenty of head room but also easy enough to get some grit by using the gain knob.

 

[Elvis Nixon]

Okay. I’m not going to argue about recording with anyone.
I know what I like and I know how to record. I close mic with a 421 and a U87 about 8ft away for the room sound. I was friends with the late great Bob Ohlsen who engineered a good deal of the Motown recordings. I got my BA in audio recording and production in 1990 and have been a studio owner since 1992. I don’t need snarkyness. Thanks for the info Mushroo. That’s what I wanted to know.

 

[BogeyBass]

Correct it can go both ways with a low watt recording amp.

In reality say you had a driver with very low Efficiency at 90 dB
the thing is at home 1 to 3 watts is still 90 to 94 dB which is smoking loud.

the real trick with tube amps to me is a sealed cabinet
nothing beats the tone of a sealed cab and a tube amp.

problem is for high SPL designs, alot sealed cabinets use a smaller airspace
for more power handling. This leads to a somewhat bloomy response and less bass.

In a home environment we dont have to design for high SPL we can actually put a driver
in a larger cabinet and actually design for ideal damping factor or cabinet Q closer to .707

in english that means a larger box.

A good " recording" speaker for sealed would be a driver that gets little recommendation
Im recommending it cause it is not a cheaper stamp steel frame. It is higher quality Cast frame
with a very large magnet. Likewise the frequency response is much flatter and ideal for recording and doesnt have as much
peaks and dips. Also it has a dual cone design with a high frequency whizzer for extended top end response and no tweeter needed

This would be the Eminence Legend B102

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]



instead of putting it in 1 cubic feet, id assume a .707 to .8 cabinet Q would be closer to 3 cubic feet.
Basically sealed no ports and a 10" in a 1x15 sized cabinet.
thats a recording cab.

otherwise for very very high SPL the only 15" i know with a average sensitivity of 101 dB is a Delta Pro 15A
it is another cast frame driver with a very very large magnet to get such high sensitivity

DELTA PRO-15A - Loudspeakers | Eminence Speaker

Probably what you could do is just buy a used ampeg SVT15E they are a dime a dozen
this is a 1x15 Ampeg ported cab with no tweet.
The legend speaker it comes with is basically a cast frame CB158 very similar somewhat to a Delta15A pro
but has no where as much sensitivity roughly 97/98 dB.

If for some reason you dont realize how smoking loud a 1x15 is at home and the SVT15E isnt as efficient as you need.
then load it with the Delta15 pro for more highend and Sensitivity.

As far as a live rig as well a 50 watt tuber and a 1x15 loaded with the Delta15 pro is probably the highest sensitivity 15" your going to find.

 

[BogeyBass]

Okay. I’m not going to argue about recording with anyone.
I know what I like and I know how to record. I close mic with a 421 and a U87 about 8ft away for the room sound. I was friends with the late great Bob Ohlsen who engineered a good deal of the Motown recordings. I got my BA in audio recording and production in 1990 and have been a studio owner since 1992. I don’t need snarkyness. Thanks for the info Mushroo. That’s what I wanted to know.

Basically the classic recording tone would be a 1x15 with the classic JBL D-130 or later K series K-140

finding vintage drivers isnt hard and not super easy.

Then again aside from my long winded post above. basically for very high senstivity and very good mid detail and highend.
your looking at a Delta 15a pro.

And again a good off the shelf box would be the SVT15E from Ampeg
great thing about this cab it is roughly 3.4 cubic feet and tuned to 40hz

basically any classic 15" driver will drop right into that box and work. the classic list of 15" would be something like

JBL D-130
JBL D-140
JBL K-140
EV- 15L
EV- 15B
Altec 421
Peavey Black Widow
Eminence Kappa Pro 15A
Eminence Delta Pro 15A
Eminence Legend CB-158
Eminence Kappalite 3015

all of those speakers drop right into the SVT15 and work fine
for highest sensitivity the D-130 and Delta 15 pro win

far as recording tone the next on the list would be the EV 15L

Since you mentioned 12" 4x12 guitar cabs for recording. ive done it.
Trick is to line the cabinet with poly batten to calm the boxy sound.
For live high efficiency 12" speakers for bass 4x12 the EV12L works well for bass
likewise the " black shadow" factory mesa drivers which is basically a EV12L
or use the off the shelf Beta12a2 from Eminence which has its roots from " special design" 12" bass drivers original designed for SWR and Ampeg

 

[lowendrv]

I run two PF 12's . Two get plenty loud for most gigs . One is perfect for studio . Link Removed

 

[Elvis Nixon]

Correct it can go both ways with a low watt recording amp.

In reality say you had a driver with very low Efficiency at 90 dB
the thing is at home 1 to 3 watts is still 90 to 94 dB which is smoking loud.

the real trick with tube amps to me is a sealed cabinet
nothing beats the tone of a sealed cab and a tube amp.

problem is for high SPL designs, alot sealed cabinets use a smaller airspace
for more power handling. This leads to a somewhat bloomy response and less bass.

In a home environment we dont have to design for high SPL we can actually put a driver
in a larger cabinet and actually design for ideal damping factor or cabinet Q closer to .707

in english that means a larger box.

A good " recording" speaker for sealed would be a driver that gets little recommendation
Im recommending it cause it is not a cheaper stamp steel frame. It is higher quality Cast frame
with a very large magnet. Likewise the frequency response is much flatter and ideal for recording and doesnt have as much
peaks and dips. Also it has a dual cone design with a high frequency whizzer for extended top end response and no tweeter needed

This would be the Eminence Legend B102

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

View attachment 3803319

instead of putting it in 1 cubic feet, id assume a .707 to .8 cabinet Q would be closer to 3 cubic feet.
Basically sealed no ports and a 10" in a 1x15 sized cabinet.
thats a recording cab.

otherwise for very very high SPL the only 15" i know with a average sensitivity of 101 dB is a Delta Pro 15A
it is another cast frame driver with a very very large magnet to get such high sensitivity

DELTA PRO-15A - Loudspeakers | Eminence Speaker

Probably what you could do is just buy a used ampeg SVT15E they are a dime a dozen
this is a 1x15 Ampeg ported cab with no tweet.
The legend speaker it comes with is basically a cast frame CB158 very similar somewhat to a Delta15A pro
but has no where as much sensitivity roughly 97/98 dB.

If for some reason you dont realize how smoking loud a 1x15 is at home and the SVT15E isnt as efficient as you need.
then load it with the Delta15 pro for more highend and Sensitivity.

As far as a live rig as well a 50 watt tuber and a 1x15 loaded with the Delta15 pro is probably the highest sensitivity 15" your going to find.

Thanks. Very helpful and spot on as far as what I want to know. Great idea on the SVT15E and replace the speaker with something more efficient. If you’re using an inefficient speaker with a low power amp the speaker will not have much excursion at all and sounds constipated. Kinda like driving your car with the emergency brake on. A tube amp is much more interactive with the speaker. The damping factor (the way the amp controls the speaker’s excursion both push and pull) is better with an efficient speaker. Also, most modern bass speakers are designed for very high power handling. The higher the speaker’s power handling, the more thin and anemic it sounds with a much smaller amp. I guess I need to calculate the Thiele/Small parameter math and then I’ll know enough to try different drivers in that SVT15E cabinet.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Hello folks, I have a PF-50T coming and need to get a suitable cabinet and speaker. I’ll be using this rig strictly for recording. I’m hoping to find a non-fliptop early B-15 style of cabinet ideally unloaded (unless there’s a cab that matches what I want out of the speaker). I want a vintage sounding very efficient 15” speaker. I wish more speakers listed the sensitivity in the spec sheets. I’m hoping for something in the high 90’s or better. As you all may know, for every 3db SPL more sensitive a speaker is, it’s the same as doubling your amplifier power. With 50 tube watts to work with, I want a very efficient speaker like the Altecs in the B-15s were. Any suggestions for a cabinet and speaker combo would be great!

Pf210. Leave it attached to it.

Why'd you get the 50 instead of the 25 though? If you're going to be recording only with it, wouldn't you like to be able to have more tone flexibility with the lower volume?

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Thanks. Very helpful and spot on as far as what I want to know. Great idea on the SVT15E and replace the speaker with something more efficient. If you’re using an inefficient speaker with a low power amp the speaker will not have much excursion at all and sounds constipated. Kinda like driving your car with the emergency brake on. A tube amp is much more interactive with the speaker. The damping factor (the way the amp controls the speaker’s excursion both push and pull) is better with an efficient speaker. Also, most modern bass speakers are designed for very high power handling. The higher the speaker’s power handling, the more thin and anemic it sounds with a much smaller amp. I guess I need to calculate the Thiele/Small parameter math and then I’ll know enough to try different drivers in that SVT15E cabinet.

Not really bro. A speakers thermal "power rating" has nothing to do with its sound. That's just a loose number system based on when your voice coil is going to get so hot that it's unable to cool itself any more and melt. A speakers sensitivity is what makes it push harder at lower volumes. Usually what causes it to break easier too. They don't call it "sensitivity" for nothing.

 

[Elvis Nixon]

Pf210. Leave it attached to it.

Why'd you get the 50 instead of the 25 though? If you're going to be recording only with it, wouldn't you like to be able to have more tone flexibility with the lower volume?

Because when I have a band come in I like to track the band together live. I use Bob’s technique of baffled off live recording without headphones. The Motown stuff was done using speakers in the tracking room. Jamerson would use a custom DI only and the B15 was used as a monitor so everyone could hear the bass since they were not using headphones. The Neumann mics above the drumkit would pick up a fair bit of the bleed from the B15. A happy accident that it sounded so amazing. They had mic bleed all over the place and that was one key to the Motown sound. So I got the 50 for the ability to track live without headphones which means the bass needs to be close to keeping up with the drums.

 

[Elvis Nixon]

Not really bro. A speakers thermal "power rating" has nothing to do with its sound. That's just a loose number system based on when your voice coil is going to get so hot that it's unable to cool itself any more and melt. A speakers sensitivity is what makes it push harder at lower volumes. Usually what causes it to break easier too. They don't call it "sensitivity" for nothing.

Not really bro. A speakers thermal "power rating" has nothing to do with its sound. That's just a loose number system based on when your voice coil is going to get so hot that it's unable to cool itself any more and melt. A speakers sensitivity is what makes it push harder at lower volumes. Usually what causes it to break easier too. They don't call it "sensitivity" for nothing.

It has to do with magnet material and size as well as the voice coils. Higher power speakers usually have large N/dyne magnets and larger voice coils as well as stiffer cones. They sound very noticeably brighter sound than a lower power handling speaker.

 

[BogeyBass]

For keeping up with drums it depends on the drummer.

50 watts would be ok for some drummers with a high SPL 1x15

if not you double the formula to a 2x15

Far as " tone" in a recording the Delta 15A and a EV15L are going to be hard to beat.
Unfortunately the cost of finding good EV15L or re coning them can include some cost

As far as TS parameters for the Delta it typically is going to like a larger box to meet a actual alignment.
around 3.8 to 4 cubic feet and tuned above or below FS depending if your wanting a 3rd or 4th order slope.

In reality what really speaks for the driver is very good midrange detail and very good highend.
hence why it will average 101 dB

The lowend i guess you could say is not like a 158 legend, but normal amp EQ will boost lowend to whatever levels you needed
likewise most are going to stick it in 3.2 to 3.4 cubic feet anyways and the additional cabinet Q will boost the lowend quite a bit.
its always good to check TS but as i mentioned i heard all these drivers in various cabs and have modeled them alot.

its literally astounding how 3.4 to 3.8 cubic feet at 40 hz can make all the classic 15 drivers sound more than fine.
Hence why i thought of the SVT15E which is a generic perfect form factor likewise the TL606 both can be found used very cheap, and if you want to shuffle drivers anything from a black widow to a JBL works fine.

Im not sure how you feel about the Black Widows, likewise the Black Widows developed for pedal steel players.
but they very much come close to classic JBLs. Another good monitor in the studio is literally a black widow loaded 2x15 with either bass or guitar 15" speakers.

AS i mentioned the sealed sound is amazing for tube amps, there is a bit of magic with the transformer and sealed cabinets. and at anytime stuffing or blocking ports can be tried with any ported cab

 

[Elvis Nixon]

I’m probably looking for a 3rd order slope so I can keep my room mic 8ft away and 8ft high. I just ordered a SVT115E and will try it as is. I ‘ll go with your excellent recommendations and try the EV’s. One thing I alike about black widows is you can unscrew the magnet and drop in a new voice coil but I think I’ll stick with trying those EVs. Thanks again. Very helpful info!

 

[Fab Superlative]

Well I see that you are going with the 115E, I was going to ask what your budget is and what your tone goals were. Since I've always had good results using the classic B15N Double Baffle cab. Fliptops.net can supply a proper loaded double baffled cab.
I feel the cab itself* lends a noticeable element in conjunction with the proper speaker to produce a very pleasing tone. Again, without knowing your budget and tone goals, I've also had great success with using a Neumann Fet U47 for close mic'ing the cab.