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ampeg svt ohm question

BassIan said:
It's not enough that an Ampeg ENGINEER (NOT a manual author) and the resident tube expert both contradict the Ampeg manual and tell you in exact electrical terms WHY this is wrong?

BassIan, nobody's really done that.

The OP asked whether he could run his SVT "a little over 4 ohms (load)". The answers he got were from "absolutley not" to "should be OK" - maybe both are premature given the limited info.

Jerrold wrote:

"So how much is "a little over 4 ohms"? Maybe if you told us what the impedance was going to nominally be we could sort it out into "no way", "maybe" or "should be fine"."

The OP hasn't gotten back with what "a little over 4 ohms" is. He could mean 4.1 or 4.8 or pick a number "a little over" 4.

So, I don't think that anyone's yet given a definitive, correct answer to the OP's question and, until he replies with what the actual, nominal speaker load is, it's probably not possible.

My bad for referencing the Ampeg SVT manual.
 
A friend used to use a SVT-II into a 100% mismatch with no problems. But it will shorten tube life somewhat, and is definately not recommended. Also, the components in the amp matter a lot when you do the mismatch. A cheap tube will fry, and the strain on the other components is greater than normal. Some amps running at their limits could easily blow with a 100% mismatch.
 
Herman said:
BassIan, nobody's really done that.

The OP asked whether he could run his SVT "a little over 4 ohms (load)". The answers he got were from "absolutley not" to "should be OK" - maybe both are premature given the limited info.

Jerrold wrote:

"So how much is "a little over 4 ohms"? Maybe if you told us what the impedance was going to nominally be we could sort it out into "no way", "maybe" or "should be fine"."

The OP hasn't gotten back with what "a little over 4 ohms" is. He could mean 4.1 or 4.8 or pick a number "a little over" 4.

So, I don't think that anyone's yet given a definitive, correct answer to the OP's question and, until he replies with what the actual, nominal speaker load is, it's probably not possible.

My bad for referencing the Ampeg SVT manual.

Yes, they have. If you'd follow their leads and references to the Ohm FAQ which you claim to have read but clearly have not in any thorough or useful way, you'd see the completely well explained answer. This has been done already, so surely nobody feels the need to directly copy and paste. The thread's right there, search the thread for posts by Jerrold Tiers and Psycho Bass Guy.

As for referencing the manual, it should be generally understood that the people writing the manual are rarely engineering types and quite often are marketing types who don't really have answers to questions like these. I'm inclined to listen to the engineer who's designing the amps, not the guy who wrote the manual. I realize this is not *always* the case, but it's a good rule of thumb that hasn't failed me. This isn't just for Ampeg.

I agree with you about what "a little over 4 ohms" is. That's pretty vague, but now that he's answered that question, I have other concerns.

jpark, How do you get the three 10" woofers to come out to 10 ohms?
 
BassIan said:
Yes, they have. If you'd follow their leads and references to the Ohm FAQ which you claim to have read but clearly have not in any thorough or useful way, you'd see the completely well explained answer. This has been done already, so surely nobody feels the need to directly copy and paste. The thread's right there, search the thread for posts by Jerrold Tiers and Psycho Bass Guy.

As for referencing the manual, it should be generally understood that the people writing the manual are rarely engineering types and quite often are marketing types who don't really have answers to questions like these. I'm inclined to listen to the engineer who's designing the amps, not the guy who wrote the manual. I realize this is not *always* the case, but it's a good rule of thumb that hasn't failed me. This isn't just for Ampeg.


For the record, I haven't debated one word of Jerrold's only post in this thread - I agree with it. If he says the manual's wrong, I believe him.

Also for the record, I've read the FAQ and nothing in it (including PBG's and Jerrold's post within that thread) contradicts the original advice I gave to the OP.
 
jpark said:
This is what don from low down sound quoted me.

"Top 3x10 ---10ohms. bottom 2x12---8 ohms, basic final ohm rating approx. 4+ ohms..."

jpark, that gives you a total, nominal load of about 4.4 ohms or about 10% higher than the 4 ohm tap on your SVT. Based on the info in this thread and others on the topic, I'd say you're probably OK but Jerrold or PBG may be able to give you a more definitive answer.
 
Assuming the 4.4 ohms is the actual nominal impedance number, it's fine. You won't know the actual speaker impedance that closely in any case.

Hook it to 4 ohms tap and play it anyhow you want, IMO.

As for how it would be 10 ohms for 3? If they are nominal 32 ohms drivers, they end up at 10.7 ohms nominal if paralleled. Then the total comes out to a nominal 4.6 ohms...... again a number closer than you know the impedances anyhow.
 
Herman said:
BassIan, you're 21, right? I don't believe you've had much practical engineering experience at that age - possibly none. It should be generally understood that the technical information in product manuals isn't dreamed up by fiction writers - it's provided by engineers or, in many cases, written by engineers with just final editing/formatting done by tech pubs. I doubt very much that Ampeg has a staff of manual writers that are on their own and put whatever comes to their minds into their product manuals. If their writers aren't being provided with proper technical input and aren't having their work reviewed by engineers, then they ought to reevaluate how they produce their manuals.

For the record, I haven't debated one word of Jerrold's only post in this thread - I agree with it. If he says the manual's wrong, I believe him.

Also for the record, I've read the FAQ and nothing in it (including PBG's and Jerrold's post within that thread) contradicts the original advice I gave to the OP.

If you wish for a list of my practical experience and expertise, PM me and I'll fill you in. Understand that a 21 year old in school can have plenty of practical, real-world experience. It doesn't happen often, but it has with me. In general, and from observing my classmates, the lack of practical experience is scary. So your assumption is understandible, but incorrect.

We can let Jerrold answer the question because he is the best qualified to do so regarding the amplifier in question. He already has.

Your debate with PBG and suggestion to read and follow the manual instead of heeding his (and Jerrold's) advice tells me that you DID in fact contradict their advice. If you have since changed your mind, then that's the end of it - just say so.

So, to summarize, on a tube amplifier it is best not to mismatch impedance. If you have a 2 ohm and a 4 ohm tap on your amp, chose the correct one. They're there for a reason. In this case, where we have a cabinet with odd impedance, it's close enough to 4 ohms that it won't matter. Besides, impedance being heavily frequency dependent with significant peaks at the tuning frequency and a general rise with increasing frequency, there's a reason it's called "nominal".
 
BassIan said:
If you wish for a list of my practical experience and expertise, PM me and I'll fill you in.Understand that a 21 year old in school can have plenty of practical, real-world experience. It doesn't happen often, but it has with me. In general, and from observing my classmates, the lack of practical experience is scary. So your assumption is understandible, but incorrect.".

Fair enough.

BassIan said:
We can let Jerrold answer the question because he is the best qualified to do so regarding the amplifier in question. He already has.

Yes, he has.

BassIan said:
So, to summarize, on a tube amplifier it is best not to mismatch impedance. If you have a 2 ohm and a 4 ohm tap on your amp, chose the correct one. They're there for a reason. In this case, where we have a cabinet with odd impedance, it's close enough to 4 ohms that it won't matter. Besides, impedance being heavily frequency dependent with significant peaks at the tuning frequency and a general rise with increasing frequency, there's a reason it's called "nominal".

This seems different than what you said originally.
 
I have a follow up question...

I am currently running my SVT-CL at 4ohms into a Mesa 1x15 (400watt rated) 8ohm cabinet. I understand that this is not ideal, but was told by several techs that this shouldn't damage either piece of equipment, but rather I would just not be getting the most efficient power from my set up.

Could someone please explain specifically what components in the SVT are at risk and why? I have been using this set up 1 once a week for 6 months and nothing has been too alarming other than a lack of headroom and some nice sounding speaker distortion when playing loud.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!
 
This is long but all good information. The important part is in bold.

Transformers don't have impedances, they have impedance RATIOs. This is an important distinction.

Transformers transform impedances as a pure ratio. That is, a 4400 PP to 8 ohm transformer makes any load on its secondary look like it's 550 times bigger to a tube at the primary. An 8 ohm secondary load then looks like a 4400 ohm load at the primary. It also makes a 16 ohm load look like an 8800 ohm load if you hook 16 to it, 2200 if you hook a 4 ohm load to it, and similarly for all values in between. Power tubes have a power output that depends on matching - that is, they have sweet spot load that they do best on, most power out, and other loads will get less power because the tube itself limits how much power it will transfer out. [Actually there are two sweet spots, one for highest power, one for lowest distortion; the two spots are not the same for any known tube. From zero ohms loading up to some ill-defined number of ohms higher than the optimum power load, power tubes do not destroy themselves, they merely change how much they transfer to the load. So - if you have a tube amp with a tap for 8 ohms, you will get the nominal power of the amp only with a "matched" 8 ohm load. If you hook 16 ohms there, the power tubes "see" a proportionately higher impedance on their plates, and can only put out about half the nominal power. If you hook up a 4 ohm load to the 8 ohm tap, the power tubes "see" a load about half of the matched one, and again will put out only about half of the nominal power. This "half the nominal" power is not fixed because of the 2:1 change in load, but varies from amp to amp and tube to tube, and may not be exactly 2:1. In addition, speakers are NOT single impedance loads. It is convenient to think of "8-ohm" speakers, but the plain fact is that the speaker's impedance varies with frequency and also with the acoustic loading (cabinet and other things) that the speaker sees. That impedance meter is not going to be a huge help, because you have to specify the frequency being tested as well as the impedance to have something meaningful.

The power tubes simply refuse to put out all that much more current with a lower-impedance load, so death by overheating with a too-low load is all but impossible - not totally out of the question but extremely unlikely. The power tubes simply get into a loading range where their output power goes down from the mismatched load. At 2:1 lower-than-matched load is not unreasonable at all.

If you do too high a load, the power tubes still limit what they put out, but a second order effect becomes important.

There is magnetic leakage from primary to secondary and between both half-primaries to each other. When the current in the primary is driven to be discontinuous, you get inductive kickback from the leakage inductances in the form of a voltage spike.

This voltage spike can punch through insulation or flash over sockets, and the spike is sitting on top of B+, so it's got a head start for a flashover to ground. If the punchthrough was one time, it wouldn't be a problem, but the burning residues inside the transformer make punchthrough easier at the same point on the next cycle, and eventually erode the insulation to make a conductive path between layers. The sound goes south, and with an intermittent short you can get a permanent short, or the wire can burn though to give you an open there, and now you have a dead transformer.


For a poorly designed (high leakage, poor coupling, not well insulated or potted) transformer, 2:1 may well be marginal. Worse, if you have an intermittent contact in the path to the speaker, you will introduce transients that are sharper and hence cause higher voltages. In that light, the speaker impedance selector switch could kill OT's if two ways - if it's a break befor make, the transients cause punch through; if it's a make before break, the OT is intermittently shorted and the higher currents cause burns on the switch that eventually make it into a break before make. Turning the speaker impedance selector with an amp running is something I would not chance, not once.

For why Marshalls are extra sensitive, could be the transformer design, could be that selector switch. I personally would not worry too much about a 2:1 mismatch too low, but I might not do a mismatch high on Marshalls with the observed data that they are not all that sturdy under that load. In that light, pulling two tubes and leaving the impedance switch alone might not be too bad, as the remaining tubes are running into a too-low rather than too-high load.

source
 
While interesting this is jargon to me, could some please explain the risks specific to my situation in laymen terms. Also, being that I have been playing with this setup for awhile, does this mean I am in the clear, or am I doing continuous damage to the amp??

ORIGINAL QUESTION:
"I am currently running my SVT-CL at 4ohms into a Mesa 1x15 (400watt rated) 8ohm cabinet. I understand that this is not ideal, but was told by several techs that this shouldn't damage either piece of equipment, but rather I would just not be getting the most efficient power from my set up.

Could someone please explain specifically what components in the SVT are at risk and why? I have been using this setup once a week for 6 months and nothing has been too alarming other than a lack of headroom and some nice sounding speaker distortion when playing loud."
 
The bolded part is fairly clear if you look for the key words. Using a higher than rated impedance load (ie your 8 ohm cab on the 4 ohm tap) increases the risk for voltage spikes between the head/cab which can cause damage to your output tubes, output transformer, and tube sockets and associated components.

A well made transformer, with good insulation/potting etc, should handle this fairly well, but a cheaper one wont. Historically, ampeg has been known for over spec-ing their transformers so you have a fairly robust piece of equipment that can probably handle this, but over time you are increasing the likelihood of a catastrophic failure but using that kind of mismatched system.
 
Awesome thanks for responding again. I really have been meaning to add another 8ohm cabinet to get the matched 4ohms the head is asking for. Maybe this will light a fire under me. I just hope the damage isn't already done (Fingers crossed that it isn't too bad yet).
 
Here is a impedance chart of a legend CB158 15" speaker in a sealed cabinet.

This speaker has a nominal rating of 8ohms.

But if you look carefully impedance changes with frequency.
and at the lowest portion of the curve its 6 ohms and at the highest it is 56 ohms.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

So if you were to run this 8ohm speaker on a proper 8ohm tap. the tap will still see 6 to 56 ohms. putting most of the faq's to shame but still keeping them correct in some ways.

the biggest concern for a tube amp is the amount of current the transformer will see.
And the lower the load (ohms) the more current it will see.

Proven by very basic ohms law I = E/R

Current (I) = Voltage(E) divided by Resistance (R)

lets put 20 volts into 8ohms = 2.5amps of current
lets put 20 volts into 4ohms = 5 amps of current

as you see a lower impedance will draw more current.

Therefor in a tube amp transformer, the main difference between a 8ohm tap and 4ohm tap beside the actual winding ratio. Is that a lower ohm tap will include heavier gauge wiring because a lower ohm tap will pull more current. Heavy wire must be used to handle the extra heat and energy needed for a low impedance. Likewise the downfall of 4 and 2ohm taps in general they have poorer frequency response because of the heavier wire.

So when the Ampeg manual recommends using a matched load or higher load they are absolutely correct.
Why? because running a tap below its rating will cause more current to be pulled threw it. And if the wire is not rated for the current, it will overheat the winding.

Any, almost all music amps use low cost transformers, and they will overheat.

So lets say we have only a 4ohm tap.

Running a higher load like 8ohm would be ok.
Running a lower load like 2ohm would not be ok.

likewise the perfect match would be a 4ohm nominal load on a 4ohm tap. and any mismatch could see a loss in frequency response.

likewise even if a amp has a 2ohm tap. Running the 2ohm tap with a 2ohm load is the right match. But tube life will be reduced
why....because as we see from ohms law, the 2ohm load will pull more current....more current= more heat and places a higher draw on the tubes. which lowers their lifetime.

likewise in general you want a match pure and simple.
8ohm tap = 8ohm load.

If you had lets say a 6 ohm cabinet you would want to run it on a 4ohm tap not a 8ohm tap.

Why? because 6ohms is lower than 8ohms and the lower load might pull to much current from a 8ohm tap.

You would want to run a 6ohm load on a 4ohm tap because the 4ohm tap is designed to draw more current.

which follows Ampeg's recommendation and is absolutely correct.
 
That 56 ohms is fairly misleading..... it is at ONE frequency.

When you get into trouble is by clipping the amp (overdriving it) and I guarantee you HAVE done that, and will lots more.

The frequencies generated by clipping are typically 3rd, 5th, 7th etc, all odd harmonics. THOSE are NOT at resonance and are "seeing" a lower speaker impedance, so are 'damped" by it.....

If the impedance is too high, there are two things that happen, neither is good.

1) There can be actual oscillations added to the signal, which generally cause tube overheating if too severe.... This is due to the "feedback" in the amp , which comes back from the speaker output. The transformer has all sorts of phase shifts and so forth, which if the "terminating impedance" (speaker) is too high, may turn negative (stabilizing) feedback into positive ("oscillating") feedback.

2) There can be transient bursts of high voltage damped oscillations that occur on the "front edge" of the signal.... these are not self-sustaining as described above, but are just a "shock excited" signal, rather like tapping a piece of metal and hearing a "ringing" that dies away.
These can be double the maximum peak voltage, and the maximum peak voltage is already double the amp's high voltage.... so from 700V max in the SVT we get to "normal" 1400V. With transients you can have up to 2800V peaks, which is getting pretty "hot" for an old transformer, or even a newer one, if you want it to last.

Edit: here are two photos...... this is an extreme case, NOT the same as 8 ohms on 4 ohm setting, but it will show the issue..... The issue is really "where" between these two extremes any particular situation falls.

These are JUST the "shock excited" type.... not the actual unstable oscillation type. it is a transformer operating at a few kHz, audio range.... with and without a load.

Not terminated properly
overshoot_sq_wave.jpg


Same exact setup with output terminated
Overshoot_damped_sq_wave.jpg
 
Thanks for the insight everyone, I am always amazed how thorough everyone is! Hopefully I didn't do too much damage, but it seems everything is in working order. While we can all agree that it is a far better idea to have an exact match, several amp tech specialists both online, as well as at a few reputable NYC shops seem to think everything should be OK given the specifics of my situation.

In any case, we can all rest easier as I came across a good deal today and purchased a used Ampeg SVT 410HLF – aka: the 4ohm match to my amp. I have owned this cab in the past and liked it a lot, plus I wanted the extra headroom anyway! Thanks all.