Been delving into the realm of IEMs lately. Interesting thing happened at practice yesterday. I had my medium stack (Bergantino Forte HP and two HD112 cabs) going, along with the PA. At some point I reached back and turned the master volume knob of the Forte HP all the way off and can't say I missed a whole lot. There was still the rumble and feel from the PA subs, and I could hear just fine thru the IEMs. Got me wondering, do I really need to bring an amp/cabs to gigs? Got me thinking I could bring my 2U rack with the wireless for my bass, a 1U power conditioner, (the main rack has the wireless for our IEMs), some kind of pre/DI pedal, and a bass. It seems a weird concept after so many years of schlepping big bass cabs and 8U racks to gigs but jeez, it was a bit of an eye opener turning that volume know off and still chugging along as normal. Any one else have this experience? Any DI pedals I should be looking at? Sadowsky? Sansamp? Others? Thanks!
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Ampless??
- Thread starter ivanthetrble
- Start date
Some potential benefits of using IEMs that are negatively impacted if you continue to use an amp:
1. Stage volume can be reduced. This can allow the PA to deliver a higher quality mix at a lower volume.
2. Good IEMs can provide quite a bit of isolation, so you hear less bleed from other sound sources. Each band member should be able to hear better, assuming everyone gets a personal mix. However using IEMs is a different listening experience than working in an acoustic environment. Some musicians prefer IEMs, some prefer amps. Some who prefer amps are flexible enough to adapt to IEMs. Some refuse to adapt and will complain incessantly if forced to use IEMs.
3. Less gear to transport and load. Less work, smaller footprint, and faster setup/soundcheck.
1. Stage volume can be reduced. This can allow the PA to deliver a higher quality mix at a lower volume.
2. Good IEMs can provide quite a bit of isolation, so you hear less bleed from other sound sources. Each band member should be able to hear better, assuming everyone gets a personal mix. However using IEMs is a different listening experience than working in an acoustic environment. Some musicians prefer IEMs, some prefer amps. Some who prefer amps are flexible enough to adapt to IEMs. Some refuse to adapt and will complain incessantly if forced to use IEMs.
3. Less gear to transport and load. Less work, smaller footprint, and faster setup/soundcheck.
I kept using an amp after it had already proven to not really be necessary and there have been a number of times now that I experienced similar...happily playing and fine with the way things sounded and felt only to realize that my amp was muted. It's taken me a while to get to the point that I rarely bring an amp.
Any number of pedals would likely do a good job for you, any reason you don't mention the Bergantino Super Pre? Might feel most like home.
Any number of pedals would likely do a good job for you, any reason you don't mention the Bergantino Super Pre? Might feel most like home.
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I will give you that IEMs don't sound as good as an amp, but I wonder if the sound of the amp is just what I have been used to for many years. Our guitar player complains endlessly that he can't get "his sound" thru IEMs. I suggested he may want to look into some of the amp modelers. He is also way to liberal with his volume pedal. I get his guitar level set in my mix and then he cranks the volume pedal up and I dive for the guitar slider on my iPad. Seems to be with IEMs that you get levels set and then have to trust the FOH/sound guy to handle the rest? Constant up and down volume levels on individual instruments seems like its a good way to get on the bad side of sound guys.
IEMs provide a different listening experience that a lot guitar players seem to struggle with.
The best chance of success is to try and understand how the guitarist gets a sound and what the sound is like when it reaches their ears. Their amp and cab is definitely part of the equation. However, I think a bigger part can be how the sound changes as it travels from the speaker to the guitarists ear. Many guitarists seem to hate the direct sound coming out the front of their cab. Instead they want to pump the room so they can monitor off the indirect and somewhat diffuse sound bouncing around. The idea is to sort of be engulfed in a nice warm sound; sort of to be one with it. Of course the result of this approach is the guitar tends to be too loud everywhere.
Yes, more trust in the person running FOH is a hump you have to get over, but I think it's another psychological/habit thing...it's not like you could ever really hear it from the stage anyway. Guitar players who insist they can only get their sound from an amp are different...not much point IMO in trying to convince them otherwise.
I wouldn't agree that "IEMs don't sound as good as an amp". For me and depending on context, my own sound experience can be better with IEMs.
I did a sub gig this past weekend at a small place that has house sound. The band doesn't have their own ear rig so, the sound guy runs their ears. I had done the same at this place not too long ago and I didn't like the guy who was working that night, so I brought an amp in case the same guy was running sound...and he was, so I said I'd take a wedge. Even as badly as he did with my mix (by comparison to what I'm used to running it myself), I realized once I was without them that I made a mistake. The place keeps a very low stage volume and I was fighting to hear the amp. I asked for more bass in the wedge, which looked like it was used for training pitbulls for dog fights, and that sounded like crap. In that context, the IEMs would have sounded way better than the amp.
I wouldn't agree that "IEMs don't sound as good as an amp". For me and depending on context, my own sound experience can be better with IEMs.
I did a sub gig this past weekend at a small place that has house sound. The band doesn't have their own ear rig so, the sound guy runs their ears. I had done the same at this place not too long ago and I didn't like the guy who was working that night, so I brought an amp in case the same guy was running sound...and he was, so I said I'd take a wedge. Even as badly as he did with my mix (by comparison to what I'm used to running it myself), I realized once I was without them that I made a mistake. The place keeps a very low stage volume and I was fighting to hear the amp. I asked for more bass in the wedge, which looked like it was used for training pitbulls for dog fights, and that sounded like crap. In that context, the IEMs would have sounded way better than the amp.
There is some "warmth" or enveloping "presence" to the sound of a good bass amp. It is hard to put into words but I trust that just about everyone on this forum knows what I'm trying to say. I suggested that our guitar player spend some time practicing thru good quality headphones at home to get more used to the sound of IEMs. I found that helped me make the transition faster. Also, good Eq would do wonders as well.
3......also results in a better mix for the people who are the most important.....the audience.
jacoby75
Supporting Member
- Mar 11, 2010
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- Endorsing Artist: Mike Lull Custom Guitars, DR Strings
I have seen those, but honestly, I get enough gut rumble from the FOH subs so not sure a BackBeat would be needed.
carsonchilders
Carson Childers
Some gigs are great to go amp-less... But often the unpredictable nature of venues is a good reason why an amp is worth at least being in the car.
Regarding pedals/DI/whatever, I think the first thing to figure out is if you are wanting a pedal that simulates an amp or not... They're different worlds and it would help inform what direction of pedal you look for. For me, I don't want a simulated amp tone as my main sound because my favorite bass recordings were often console direct. I like my amps to sound like amps and my DIs to sound like DIs. But many feel differently!
Regarding pedals/DI/whatever, I think the first thing to figure out is if you are wanting a pedal that simulates an amp or not... They're different worlds and it would help inform what direction of pedal you look for. For me, I don't want a simulated amp tone as my main sound because my favorite bass recordings were often console direct. I like my amps to sound like amps and my DIs to sound like DIs. But many feel differently!
I went IEM pretty much out of necessity. My hearing is going off. Quickly. So I kind of jumped of the deep end and did it. I haven't brought an amp in months now. My guitarist has done the same thing. Because we do our own sound in smaller venues, the first song I'll leave them out and take a liesurely stroll out front to check the mix and mine and the gutarists sound. After that I pop them in and forget about it.
We decided when we started to set up an ambience mic too. I blend in a little of that to make sure we have a decent sound. That helped with the learning curve.
It's so nice to be able to hear after a gig. Who knew?!?
We decided when we started to set up an ambience mic too. I blend in a little of that to make sure we have a decent sound. That helped with the learning curve.
It's so nice to be able to hear after a gig. Who knew?!?
jacoby75
Supporting Member
- Mar 11, 2010
- 5,661
- 10,716
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Mike Lull Custom Guitars, DR Strings
Well, "needed" is all relative. I spend all kinds of time convincing myself I need things I don't. Yeah, if you can consistently feel the subs, it might not be necessary. And the cost of the Backbeat is a bit prohibitive for what it does. But it is a real game changer. I think my favorite thing about it is that the feedback you get from it is consistent no matter where you are on the stage, and no matter the size of the PA. It definitely helps me lock in better. Necessary? Maybe not. Fun? Definitely.
My gigging setup. Do I miss my amp? Yup! In some venues I get enough off the subs to not miss it horribly. No one is asking me to go ampless. I just choose to do so because I prefer not schlepping a bunch of bass gear around. IEM's and my rack pre-amp rig get me 80% there.
Even when you endlessly point out that that's the exact signal they are sending to FOH and that's what's being used.
The reason guitar players struggle is because of distortion. Many bass players don't use distortion so they don't appreciate the challenge. With guitar, the distortion signal going into the amp is very tinny. The process of going through the preamp, power amp and speakers smooth's the whole thing out. So, when asked to send an ampless signal to FOH used for IEM's, the guitarist is actually noticing that the IEM don't sound like what would come out of the amp. To do so successfully takes a good understanding and preamp pedals, amp and speaker simulators. When you understand how to do it, and you become familiar with the different flavors of simulators and IR's it's a glorious thing. But, it's probably beyond what many people are interested in learning or able to learn.
IEM, especially with high-isolation IEMs, is more like playing with a recording than playing live. The sound is cleaner, more honest, nowhere to hide. If you want amp-like sound in your ears, your signal chain needs to account for that. Pros do it all the time. We amateurs can as well but it may require some learning along the way (amp / speaker sim, HPF, compression) and not all are willing to put in the work.
In my 3-piece band we all agreed to start using IEM's a couple years ago, and the guitar player and myself went 'ampless' soon after. He has some kind of fancy amp modeler on his pedal board that sounds really good, and I use a Bass Fly Rig for subtle effects into the send /return of an Ampeg 7 Pro with a line out to the board (I tried the Fly Rig by itself but it just didn't have enough fullness and bottom end). My 2-15's and 4-10 cabs haven't left the music room ever since.
With IEM's I now hear my vocals (and BG) better than I ever did with floor wedges, hot spots or any on stage monitors. So after having bass amps on stage for almost 50 years it was pretty hard at first to get used to relying on the subs and mains to carry the bass in house. I've learned to put all my trust in the sound guy. We've had nothing but compliments from the audiences on the sound and mix of the band, so we consider it a definite win to switch over to IEM's.
However, the one time I forgot my IEM's at home on the charger and had to rely on a 12" wedge monitor to hear my bass
I kinda wished I had a speaker cab in the car (but as they say "the show must go on"). It was a good lesson for me to double check that I have everything loaded before I head out.
With IEM's I now hear my vocals (and BG) better than I ever did with floor wedges, hot spots or any on stage monitors. So after having bass amps on stage for almost 50 years it was pretty hard at first to get used to relying on the subs and mains to carry the bass in house. I've learned to put all my trust in the sound guy. We've had nothing but compliments from the audiences on the sound and mix of the band, so we consider it a definite win to switch over to IEM's.
However, the one time I forgot my IEM's at home on the charger and had to rely on a 12" wedge monitor to hear my bass
I kinda wished I had a speaker cab in the car (but as they say "the show must go on"). It was a good lesson for me to double check that I have everything loaded before I head out.
