Double Bass Amplified Double Bass Jazz Tone - Help!

[Ric Vice]

I have a bass in the shop I just fit a Realist Lifeline to for an area High School. The teacher asked me to put a Fishman BP 100 on it which is common on school basses in the area. I told him I would do it but the result would be nasal, honky, thin.....and it would probably feedback during his spring concert.
Point? School teachers don’t give this stuff much thought. Between curriculum, keeping kids interested, parents, paperwork etc, we can understand that.

Jazz band often gets the bass the orchestra teacher can spare but that’s another battle.

I was really fortunate in that regard, mine was a jazz pianist, it's a rare thing indeed. It's usually a brass player who for better or for worse, doesn't know squat about rhythm sections. That's how the OP likeley ended up with the Realist Sound Clip. or the

Orchestra director didn't want "that pickup on one of their basses" when they performed Smetana's Moldau on the spring concert, or the district music supervisor bought Realist Sound Clips for all the schools, because they were reccommended by the owner

of the local music store who couldn't get rid of them. I'm hear all night folks.

 

[Wasnex]

Well well, now you're being not so extremely diplomatic
There is a lot that is better, but with some patience, perseverance and endurance you are able to make it work.

I think spending several days with the pickup and exploring EQ, impedance, placement, and adjusting the weights, was plenty of due diligence. Both I and the person who bought the pickup are experienced professionals, who know how to get a good sound. For example, I can make a Fishman BP100 very workable with a bow. FYI I believe we were using an Acoustic Image Clarus and a EA NL210, so very good gear appropriate for used with upright bass.

If you look for videos of the Soundclip on Youtube I believe you will find two where the sound is demoed. I have to admit the first video sounds pretty decent.

Bass plays around 2:57 in the first video.

IMHO the Patitucci video does a good job of hiding how bad the pickup sounds. Basically you hear way more bass than pickup.


The next pickup we tried was the Ehrlund EAP. About two hours was spent with a stethoscope to find the ideal placement. Some bass, amp, speaker, and player, but the sound was fabulous.

 

[Ric Vice]

I was really fortunate in that regard, mine was a jazz pianist, it's a rare thing indeed. That's how the OP ended up with the Realist Sound Clip.

Orchestra director didn't want "that pickup on one of their basses" when they performed Smetana's Moldau on the spring concert, and the district music supervisor most likely purchased Realist Sound Clips for all the schools, because they were reccommended by the owner

of the local music store who couldn't get rid of them. I'm hear all night folks.

P.S. the reason you have to take the Realist Sound Clip of before the concerts is that they mute the bridge. The Realist Life line doesn't do that and it's removable if one is careful enough. Provided the basses have adjusters.

 

[Ric Vice]

by comparison here's the Realist Life Line

 

[Wasnex]

I do get your dilemma. If the instructor cannot be convinced of the need to allow a better pickup to be used on the bass, you must make the best of what you have. My point is there is probably little you can do to polish this turd.

Try what @Grant the Canuk suggested in post #18 with dampening the contacts with rubber. Other than that, perhaps the best you can do is endure to horrid sound during rehearsal and bring your own bass for gigs.

I used an Underwood for quite awhile early in my career. I don't consider this an ideal pickup, but it is far better than the Soundclip IMHO and relatively cheap. It does require a buffer or an amp with a high input impedance for best sound. Minimum 1 Meg and the Rumble meets the requirement.

It is typically necessary to file the wing slots for installation of the Underwood, but once the size is right it's fairly easy to remove and replace the pickup. Just be careful to not force the pickup or tug on the wires.



Years ago I tried the Barcus Berry clip pickup and I remember it being similar to the Realist Soundclip. I.E. basically boomy, uneven, and unfocused. FYI the bass model is the B3150, which is a kit with 3000A buffer preamp and B3150-M pickup. The B3150-M pickup has an RCA connector.

 

[Anthony White]

I have a question for the OP - are you looking only to solve the problem or improve your situation using the existing equipment provided by the school, or are you able to spend a little of your own (or parents', or the school's, if they are inclined to spend money on it, I guess) money to improve the situation?

 

[Ric Vice]

I used an Underwood for quite awhile early in my career. I don't consider this an ideal pickup, but it is far better than the Soundclip IMHO and relatively cheap. It does require a buffer or an amp with a high input impedance for best sound. Minimum 1 Meg and the Rumble meets the requirement..........

Having taught orchestra and band at the highschool, I couldn't reccommend the Underwood as a viable option for installing and removing from different basses, the bridges are often different styles, and shims are sometimes necessary unless you want to install a new bridge, which isn't always in the budget

for a school. Having students, even responsible ones doing the removing and re-installing probably will end up with one of them hurring to take it off and pulling the leads out of the sensors.. One of the single element ones like the KNB-1 Cremona might work, but once agian you can take out the pickup in one

stroke (pull) if someone does it to fast. Additionally, with the seasonal changes sometimes the Underwood, KNB-1 et. al. will just fall out all by themselves.

Years ago I tried the Barcus Berry clip pickup and I remember it being similar to the Realist Soundclip. I.E. basically boomy, uneven, and unfocused. FYI the bass model is the B3150, which is a kit with 3000A buffer preamp and B3150-M pickup. The B3150-M pickup has an RCA connector.

I heard Ray Drummond do a concert with a Barcus Berry B3150 and he sounded great, but he's Ray Drummond. and once you get the preamp and the pickup togeather it's a pretty expensive system ( for a school)

 

[Wasnex]

Having taught orchestra and band at the highschool, I couldn't reccommend the Underwood as a viable option for installing and removing from different basses, the bridges are often different styles, and shims are sometimes necessary unless you want to install a new bridge, which isn't always in the budget

I am not recommending the Underwood be used on multiple basses. You are totally correct, each bridge would have to be setup for the pickup, and it can actually be a bit of work to make it fit properly. When I was in junior high and high school I always used the same instrument. So the idea may be useful if the OP always uses the same bass and it has a suitable bridge. My Underwood came with shims.

I didn't have much experience or luck with pickups in high school. I played in big band, but I was mostly unplugged as they had a more experienced bass player who used a Peavey T-40 and later a P-Bass. My brother gave me a Barcus Berry contact pickup that was meant to be mounted with putty. I rigged up some sort of contraption that clipped the pickup to the bridge and it sounded pretty bad and fed back like crazy. Luckily the wires pulled out of pickup, so I had to continue playing unplugged. I was sort of an understudy, so the arrangement worked pretty well. I learned a lot and at that point in my life I was okay with it. Definitely not something I could deal with today .

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Forty years ago I played a Kay with guts and no pickup and didn’t know how good I had it.

 

[Ric Vice]

Forty years ago I played a Kay with guts and no pickup and didn’t know how good I had it.

Same here, I had a Gotz plywood bass, no pickup, and Labella Wound Gut Strings. It did have sloped upper shoulders though. The other bass at the Highschool was a 5/8" Kay Sunburst. The only pickups at that time

were the DeArmond contact mic or the Ampeg Peg Microphone, so I'm actually glad I didn't have one.

 

[damonsmith]

It should be possible to get a Rumble and Sound Clip good enough for ensemble playing in a HS band. Favor the lows and you should be fine.

 

[damonsmith]

I heard Ray Drummond do a concert with a Barcus Berry B3150 and he sounded great, but he's Ray Drummond. and once you get the preamp and the pickup togeather it's a pretty expensive system ( for a school)

I use it, I have it modified with a standard quarter inch jack. I run straight into either an AI Clarus 1 or a GK 200mb and get great results.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

I use it, I have it modified with a standard quarter inch jack. I run straight into either an AI Clarus 1 or a GK 200mb and get great results.

I have been giving it a shot, also inspired by you. But I seem to prefer the more complex tone of a mic. Once I get the scratchiness eq'ed out of the BB, it gets a little sterile. But I liked the sound you got out of it on some clips.

 

[brianrost]

its a Fender Rumble 500 combo. Fender Rumble 500 2x10" 500-Watt Bass Combo

The amp is your problem. They have a gritty sound even when set up to sound as clean as possible. If you are getting a nasal tone, reduce the high mids. Try reducing the low mids, too as I have found that the Rumbles have an exaggerated low midrange voicing that makes the sound murky. You might find the switch marked vintage worth trying, that rounds out the tone. Good luck!!!!

The other thing to know is that the quest to get a sound just like the unamplified bass is endless. Every bass responds differently to amplification, personally I went through a dozen pickups and a half dozen amplifier chains before I found something that worked for me, but it still does not sound like an unamplified bass. The louder you turn up the amp, the worse it gets.

 

[lurk]

Welcome to amplified double bass. I've never been completely happy with my sound and I've been at this for over 50 years now. You've got to adjust your ears so you love your sound whatever it is. First, be sure you're getting the best possible acoustic sound. Then start tweaking and adjusting everything you can. As others have mentioned, that pick up and amp combination would not be my favorite, but I have gotten a decent sound from that amp, and have heard others get a decent sound from the soundclip. Twist those knobs, try the amp on the floor, on a chair, pointing backwards, lying in it's back. Screw with the pickup. Different positions, adding or subtracting the weights (I was quite astonished when an excellent bass luthier decided to make a pickup that deliberately adds weight to the bridge), etc. Listen to the drummer and swing your ass off. Pay more attention to the rhythm and let the sound be what it is.

 

[Ric Vice]

I have to say after playing today behind an excellent singer Feyza Eren, with a stellar pianist Nick Schleuter using a Ehrlund EAP>Grace Designs Felix>MAS 1/8 v2. I'm Really Happy With My Sound. Yeah !!!!!!!!

 

[unbrokenchain]

Great thread.

Just stopping by to point out that OP now has advice from Belgium, Germany, Czech Republic, Denmark, Canada, New Zealand, and the U.S. at least. Way to go TB/DB

 

[Don Hergert]

The other thing to know is that the quest to get a sound just like the unamplified bass is endless.

^^This^^

Only 2 years in, I'm already seeing this...

It starts with just wanting to be heard over everything else going on, then pretty quickly it turns into why doesn't this sound like my double bass sounds? I'm pretty satisfied with the output of my installed piezos and their pre-amp, and with my onboard mic, but it's pretty clear that my amp itself is adding it's own tone character to the sound it puts out. The next frontier for me is the amp itself, and if separate, the cab.

In my short double bass amplification experience so far, it's pretty clear you cannot really judge piezos, pre-amps and mics unless you have an amp and cab setup that truely doesn't add tone character.

I'd also add that it seems like recording the amp output -- at the end of the signal chain -- is the best way to find out what things really sound like.

 

[Ric Vice]

I have owned quite a few very nice amplifiers among them Walter Woods Electroacoustic Ultra, a Gallien Kruger 200 MB, a Walter Woods MI-400–8, and an Ampeg B-15N(C). They all added character. I actually want a certain timbre, that’s similar to what my bass creates acoustically. I wouldn’t want an amplifier that didn’t have some tone quality as long as it’s maleable.

 

[BarfanyShart]

My college let me keep my Realist copper on my bass through orchestra cycles, because I was the only classical guy who also played in jazz ensembles. My teacher had a Fishman that he could remove before concerts, but the only reason an orchestra director would require removing pickups is aesthetic. The second you have a good reason to install a semi-permanent pickup ("I need to amplify this bass for a school ensemble, and make it sound good"), they should make an exception to their silly rule.