Double Bass Amplifying without amplification...

[drurb]

Volume is not why people stop and listen... but you can (and should) learn to play at a decently loud performance volume.
My band busks regularly on a corner with our backs to the street and facing a wide sidewalk with lots of foot traffic. But it means every time a loud car or motorcycle passes by behind us, we're drowned out for a few seconds. The band is a four piece and the instruments are DB, violin, guitar/bangos/mandolin and mandolin/bango/washboard. Everyone sings. We can play pretty loud and we never use amplification.
I find if what we're playing is interesting to people then a crowd will gather and listen. Sometimes 50 -75 people. Sometimes up close. If we're noodling or whatever they just keep walking and no amount of volume would make them stop.
You only have to play loud enough to be heard and then play something worth listening to for the intended audience, otherwise volume is just another way to annoy...
...my $.02
-Jeff

Fine, in the ideal sense and if your audience is up close but if you can't even hear yourself very well, it's really a drag.

 

[robobass]

I still wouldn't abandon the portable shell idea. Just as OWS protesters got creative and developed the "crowd mic", so must musicians who are invited to perfom but face restrictions on amplification.

I have another idea. What about constructing a shell with 1/8" plywood trapezoids (or triangles or whatever...) configured into a partial geodesic dome and held together with Velcro? That would be plenty portable and cost very little to build. The design itself would of course be some work.

I bet there are TB'ers here who could put together some plans, and I like the thought of being able to perform outside without any electricity. One of my early teachers once told me that music ended when they started amplifying the bass drum. I agree.

 

[notabene]

This is a bit off topic, but on a trip to Havana, I saw the majority of players play facing the walls behind them. No amplification. When I asked about it, one turned around, and the volume halved, and the (to me) beautiful upper partials sounded. I finally understand why the Ampeg (Azola) Baby Basses are in such demand. The tone is just like a bass player facing a wall.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

Fine, in the ideal sense and if your audience is up close but if you can't even hear yourself very well, it's really a drag.

I didn't say it was ideal but you've got to make it work with whatever is at hand whenever you perform. I agree that not hearing yourself is a drag but the idea of lugging around a ton of extra "crap" that needs to be set up and torn down, rehearsed with to make sure it works, etc. seems to me to be a major distraction. I think it would be more distracting than beneficial, IMHO.

The OP suggested his combo needed adequate volume at 3 - 5 meters. That should be no problem without any reinforcement at all. My suggestion is that they should spend their time and energy exploring and learning about their ability to play loud enough as a band rather than looking for a "mechanical" solution.

It seems that we often spend way too much time and energy looking for mechanical/technical solutions. The most logical solution is practice, rehearsal and awareness in the ensemble.

As always, this only my opinion, YMMV, etc.
-Jeff

 

[robobass]

I didn't say it was ideal but you've got to make it work with whatever is at hand whenever you perform. I agree that not hearing yourself is a drag but the idea of lugging around a ton of extra "crap" that needs to be set up and torn down, rehearsed with to make sure it works, etc. seems to me to be a major distraction. I think it would be more distracting than beneficial, IMHO.

The OP suggested his combo needed adequate volume at 3 - 5 meters. That should be no problem without any reinforcement at all. My suggestion is that they should spend their time and energy exploring and learning about their ability to play loud enough as a band rather than looking for a "mechanical" solution.

It seems that we often spend way too much time and energy looking for mechanical/technical solutions. The most logical solution is practice, rehearsal and awareness in the ensemble.

As always, this only my opinion, YMMV, etc.
-Jeff

Well, just don't forget that all this "extra crap" would be hauled in lieu of amps and speakers. Probably a net gain on the schlepp. And, I don't see how any amount of practicing could make certain things hearable on the street which are normally done in small rooms or larger rooms with amplification. Would you ask Edgar Meyer to do his duo version of "Zigeunerweisen" with Mike Marshall on a train platform, and then tell him to practice more if it wasn't coming out loud enough?

 

[Jeff Kissell]

Volume is not why people stop and listen... but you can (and should) learn to play at a decently loud performance volume...
...You only have to play loud enough to be heard and then play something worth listening to for the intended audience...
...my $.02
-Jeff

...As always, this only my opinion, YMMV, etc.
-Jeff

The OP is asking about a busking type situation and that is how I was looking at it in my responses. Not all music makes sense in this situation nor was I implying that EVERYTHING could or should be played outside without reinforcement. There are plenty of outdoor venues that are way more appropriate for concerts, etc.

MY EXPERIENCE has been that an acoustic ensemble can play on the street without amplification and have the music be heard.
-Jeff

 

[longfinger]

I didn't say it was ideal but you've got to make it work with whatever is at hand whenever you perform. I agree that not hearing yourself is a drag but the idea of lugging around a ton of extra "crap" that needs to be set up and torn down, rehearsed with to make sure it works, etc. seems to me to be a major distraction. I think it would be more distracting than beneficial, IMHO.

The OP suggested his combo needed adequate volume at 3 - 5 meters. That should be no problem without any reinforcement at all. My suggestion is that they should spend their time and energy exploring and learning about their ability to play loud enough as a band rather than looking for a "mechanical" solution.

It seems that we often spend way too much time and energy looking for mechanical/technical solutions. The most logical solution is practice, rehearsal and awareness in the ensemble.

As always, this only my opinion, YMMV, etc.
-Jeff

Well said.

More musicians help too. But if it's not in the budget, placement can go a long way. Quiet instruments up front near the audience as close as possible, loud instruments in the back.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

Well, just don't forget that all this "extra crap" would be hauled in lieu of amps and speakers. Probably a net gain on the schlepp. And, I don't see how any amount of practicing could make certain things hearable on the street which are normally done in small rooms or larger rooms with amplification. Would you ask Edgar Meyer to do his duo version of "Zigeunerweisen" with Mike Marshall on a train platform, and then tell him to practice more if it wasn't coming out loud enough?

I was suggesting avoiding the amps and speakers as well. Many of the Farmer's Markets here in Santa Cruz have a no amplification policy but they all have live entertainment including some great string bands.

I agree with the notion that much music in not appropriate. However the OP is asking about a real circumstance not a hypothetical one.

Again, my experience has been that playing acoustic instruments un-amplified is very doable in many situations.
-Jeff

 

[Jeff Kissell]

...placement can go a long way. Quiet instruments up front near the audience as close as possible, loud instruments in the back.

Great point. We've been experimenting with a single mic technique and nothing forces you to understand volume and dynamics like having only one mic source.

Also I think it is worth mentioning, playing in tune and playing with balanced dynamics will make everything better and everyone happier, even if it's not very loud. The music will be more compelling to play and to listen to.
-J

 

[swingingoodtime]

Wow. OK, well, I'm glad that this has stimulated plenty of healthy discussion!

I certainly agree with Jeff that having the facility to play loud when required is a good thing; when I moonlight on DB in my friend’s bluegrass band, that’s a constant challenge that I feel is a great development environment for me. However, although the muso's I work with are no slouches and certainly capable of doing so, as mentioned I'm all for making a 3 hour gig more about enjoyable work than (unpleasantly) hard work, so anything I can do to facilitate this is in my sights. My policy as a singer has always been to look after the muso's first (including re payment!); they'll then reliably look after you and everyone will have a good time. If they’re not happy, then I’m not, and everyone’s miserable. So it’s not uncommon to find me lugging an inordinate amount of gear to gigs on frequent occasion (marquees, tarps, portable power supplies, even a portable outdoor gas heater in winter!)* , so carting some plywood boards (in place of the PA? Cool, I hadn’t thought of that!) isn't too much of a stress (some understandably wouldn't, but each to their own, I guess).

*(The irony of this is that, when I’m playing upright on my friend's gigs, that’s when I’m travelling light!)

As mentioned in a previous post, it could turn out that all of this is unnecessary and that we can generate the levels required without too much difficulty (although that’s not what my bass player reckons is going to happen and, given the environment, he may well be right), but I’d rather have ‘Plan B’ at the ready, just in case…

@notabene: Face away from the audience? Now that would get their attention!

@robobass: I love the geodesic dome idea! Will some creative use of hinges, it’d be like a gigantic Rubik’s creation (Look! It’s a shelter! Now it’s a rabbit!)

@longfinger: Is it ever in the budget...? *sigh*

Thanks again everyone; all thoughts appreciated!

 

[Exxcell]

The old fashioned way...
More players, playing loud instruments, playing together.
Not one singer, but 6, not 1 guitar player but 4, not one bassist but 3...

(some arrangements will be needed).

Later on, perhaps tuba will need to replace string bass...banjo replace guitar etc.

Resonant boxes, cones and reflectors would help too...

Tuba, is THE way to go... Started, and LOVED it.

 

[Marty Forrer]

Back out of this gig and tell the coordinators why. The council has made a ruling based on a complaint only. No idea how loud you really are. No idea what the complainers real problem is. My experience is, if someone sounds like they are having fun there will be someone else to complain about it. The way to get council members to move (every time) is present how much money is being lost by a rule like that. Money and votes are the only sure way to get a response from politicians.

I'm leaning toward this. You dont need the grief of lugging big panels around, and constantly worrying about being loud enough.

 

[swingingoodtime]

No idea what the complainers real problem is.

I could have a go elaborating on this, but I'm sure that I'd contravene a number of forum etiquette rules in the process...

 

[drurb]

I didn't say it was ideal but you've got to make it work with whatever is at hand whenever you perform. I agree that not hearing yourself is a drag but the idea of lugging around a ton of extra "crap" that needs to be set up and torn down, rehearsed with to make sure it works, etc. seems to me to be a major distraction. I think it would be more distracting than beneficial, IMHO.

The OP suggested his combo needed adequate volume at 3 - 5 meters. That should be no problem without any reinforcement at all. My suggestion is that they should spend their time and energy exploring and learning about their ability to play loud enough as a band rather than looking for a "mechanical" solution.

It seems that we often spend way too much time and energy looking for mechanical/technical solutions. The most logical solution is practice, rehearsal and awareness in the ensemble.

As always, this only my opinion, YMMV, etc.
-Jeff

...and I agree. It depends on the situation, of course. Sometimes you just gotta go with some kind of reinforcement. You are quite right that it seems that too often players go for the amp when better solutions would involve technique/awareness changes.

 

[swingingoodtime]

Okay; did the gig: Here's the rundown.

I ended up not being able to tackle anything constructive (in a hammer & nails sense) until late on Friday night, but attached are pics of what I came up with. There are 4 sheets of ply (it's the 'scraps glued together' type; I know, it's kind of weird but actually looks kinda cool) in hinged pairs; these acted as backing reflectors. A bit bulky, but with a trolley no more trouble than carting speakers & stands. We ended up playing (L-R) drums, guitar & bass; the guitarist found that sitting as close to the boards really helped to hear himself, whereas if standing, his sound just vanished. I also made a mini stage/resonator for the bass; this ended up working reasonably well. We're not convinced it made a lot of difference in terms of 'sound' (I think it would have to have been bigger), but the bass player said it made a huge difference being able to feel the vibrations through his feet.

We were able to be heard in the 3-5m range fairly clearly but beyond that the sound dropped off quite quickly. The biggest difference was really to allow us to hear ourselves, although it was still a lot more work physically for the string players. And although we coped, now that I know what's involved I probably won't take the gig again as it's not fair to ask them to play like that for the little money on offer. Fortunately the organisers run several markets in other locations, so we should be able to pick up work on one of those. Pity; it's a nice gig otherwise and a real shame to lose it.

I'll put up a couple more pics of the bass platform in another post.

 

[swingingoodtime]

Here are the other pics of the bass platform. Sorry these are 'after the event'; it was a bit hectic trying to find a better place to play in the market than normal (the normal one would have been terrible) and I plain forgot to take photos once we were up & running (not to mention that once I was seated behind the drums, the last thing on my mind was getting back up again).

I case anyone's interested; I made it out of some solid wood panels that I found on the street (in a council clean-up pile; woo hoo!) and some pine strips from the local hardware store for the vertical spacers. It's screwed & glued, with the far end sealed off to (hopefully) make it a bit of a resonant cavity.

I might try re-testing it to see how much of a difference it makes to the sound, if I can convince my wife to let me bring it inside...

 

[longfinger]

Wow, you're really handy with wood construction.

How did the audience passing by like it? Was anything videotaped? What is the ensemble and what kind of music do you play? It seems that it is snare drum, acoustic guitar and double bass, no vocals...

 

[swingingoodtime]

Wow, you're really handy with wood construction.

How did the audience passing by like it? Was anything videotaped? What is the ensemble and what kind of music do you play? It seems that it is snare drum, acoustic guitar and double bass, no vocals...

Thanks! It wasn't a complex build by any means, though. It wouldn't be hard for anyone to knock up, even with just good hand tools and some planning.

You're right, it was snare/hi-hat/ride, guitar & bass (playing standards); normally (if I'd had the PA there) I would have sung but not brought the drums as it's just too much to lug around (although I occasionally do both if the gig requires it (and pays sufficiently!)). The audience did like it; we usually get a good reception. Sold a couple of CD's & got a bit of coin in the hat; nice. No video, though, sorry; I'm never keen to leave a camera several metres away unattended! There's some older stuff on my website (Paul Sun - Jazz Vocalist: Videos), but nothing particularly recent; I've been pretty slack in keeping that up to date & fresh.

 

[Matthijs]

I wonder about the effect if that bass platform was exponential in shape (like a large flattened horn) and you'd place the bass at the very start of the 'horn'. You might get the"effect of a tuning fork on the table, only even louder.

 

[drurb]

I wonder about the effect if that bass platform was exponential in shape (like a large flattened horn) and you'd place the bass at the very start of the 'horn'. You might get the"effect of a tuning fork on the table, only even louder.

Not really, because you wouldn't be driving the "horn" from its throat.