• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Amps, Speakers, Volume...

C

charmicarmicat

May 22, 2005
140
0
los angeles
#1
I spend some time reading through some of the newbie links and I did find some interesting threads but none that really answered all my questions. I may have missed something as the volume of information in this forum is quite large, so please bear with me.
I am playing with a rather loud trio: drummer and a sax player that also plays guitar and programs his laptop. Music is improv/free jazz/experimental. I use a ply Upton Medio Fino strung with Dominants (which I like but I want to try something else so they will soon to be changed in favor of a set of Superflexibles) and equipped with an RS II pick up that I like. All this is running through a pre Fender SWR California Blonde (120 watts driving a 12" speaker and a tweeter/horn).
After emailing with Bob "All Hail" Gollihur (who was very cool) about maybe trying to use another pickup together with the RS II to cut through the mix he asked me how much watts my amp putting out (see above) and made me understand that the amp I am currently using may not be loud enough even if I put it up to ear level, which I have tried. I did hear myself but the rest of the band didn't.
So, I need a new amp and I am not quite sure where to go: AI, EA, GK or something else? Head alone? Combo? If head alone, what speakers? How important are the speakers vs the amp: Would and AI head sound good with a 2x10 Ampeg cabinet? Any insight you folks can provide is appreciated. One more thing: Money doesn't grow on trees but for the purpose of this post let's pretend I have a hundred dollar bill tree that's always blooming :) I need to have an idea of how much am I looking at.
 
#2
I use the SWR WM12 for loud or doubling gigs. I believe it has the same power rating as yours. I find that amp to be plenty loud. One thing to try is turning up the gain knob until the clip light (if you have it) just barely flashes. You can also hear it when it starts to clip. Then adjust your volume from the master control. I have the gain at 3 o'clock (3/4) for my Realist.

I'd try that before you start cultivating the "Tree of Money".
 
#3
I know this probably isn't a discussion you necessarily wanted to get into, but who would you say is the member that is playing the loudest?

I play in a relatively similar field of music to you (less improv though).
My band used to be a volume battle.
I started making acoustic (ha) music becuase I'd damaged my hearing. However my group was getting so loud that I had to take a step back and assess why.
I'd play with an amp cranked to full (not high wattage admittedly) and still no one could hear what was going on.
the clarinetist had to use their own onstage amp just to be heard!! It was totally daft.

well the drummer left and we got a replacement.
He could play quietly, listened and had a smaller size kit (it will be shrunk even more when we get the 16inch bass drum)
All the amps were ditched and suddenly we were making the sound that I had aspired to.

Guitars are bad news (electric ones) they put out a lot of high frequency harmonics (especially when being overdriven) that clash with the cymbals. Net result the drummer will play the cymbals louder and probably the whole kit too.

Have a practice with just the sax/guitar/laptop player.
Don't use your amp.
see how loud he sets his gear.
I bet it will be too loud straight off.
Get him used to turning down, then you can both work on the drummer.
Use your amp to fill the gaps in their sound, not compete against it.

All that said loud is fun and it is a musical tool so back to what you asked:
erm I can't help on the amp, but I can with the strings.

The superflexibles will have more midrange content which in your current setting will cut through more and might help your problem.
I bet they won't get as much bottom from your bass though, but this can be sorted with your amp.

I was a longterm superflex user, but I've recently tired of them. Many swear by them, but I'd prefer to be using Doms.


I'm sure many others will chime in and aid in spending your money.
I could help the drummer spend his though:smug:
 
#4
Yup. What Thomas says is right on and if I have to be that loud I hesitate to take the gig. Unfortunately, as much as I beat the "purist" drum, the reality is that some groups will just hire someone else if you are unwilling to turn up. It is a line you have to walk very carefully.

My primary goal is to be a cool guy to work with. If that means I have to swallow my pride and crank up the amp... mmm tastes good.
 
#5
"...My primary goal is to be a cool guy to work with. If that means I have to swallow my pride and crank up the amp... mmm tastes good. ..."


You're so right.:p

I would be told to walk if I went to auditions and said "no no I only play acoustically and you'll all have to play quieter."

I'm just lucky(?) that I only play in my group, which making the music it does is not really a commercial venture. That reminds me: must get a day job.
 
#6
Just my $.02, FWIW. I play in a pretty darn loud 17 piece big band and was using an old and low powered amp. Because I am bassically lazy and hate to carry a lot of stuff, I restricted my search to combo amps only. Because I am aging and hate to pick up heavy stuff, the amp's weight had to be "manageable'. After considering pretty much everything out there- GK MB150, Eden, etc., I settled on a Euphonics Audio 200 Wizzy combo ordered through AH Bob G. EA made a "mistake" in assembling it and shipped it with a 500 watt head unit. A little quick negotiating between Bob and me and I ended up keeping the 500 watt Wizzy combo unit. I had a few questions as to how to run the rig, ended up talking to the prez of EA himself on the phone. Once everything was dialed in, with a Rev Solo II, etc., I found that I can run it with the EQ flat, the preamp gain up about 75% (EA said to crank the front end and keep the output volume lower) and the output gain about 25%. I'm heard all over the bandstand, and throughout every noisy club we've played. The dynamic range is fabulous and the headroom is like unlimited. Also, the whole rig has that "my bass only louder" sound. But the SWEET part of it is that I can carry the amp with one hand and my bass with the other. And I am no Man Mountain Modine any more.
 
#7
I also agree with what Thomas said. After you take all of that into account, please consider my montra:

Think SPL, not watts!

A few of my previous posts should help to explain.

Try here, here,
here.

Sorry if some of the above links refer to each other.
 
#8
I don't think that your California Blonde is your problem. I have been using a pre-Fender Blonde (150 W, I believe) for the last 8 years. It is one of the loudest amps out there, regardless of wattage. You cannot max out that amp without experiencing severe feedback problems, even with a magnetic pickup. I would suspect that your pickup is not putting out a strong enough signal.
 
#9
Hey charmicarmicat

just a thought inspired by DRURB:
Think SPL, not watts!

Can you remove the amp section from your california blonde?
If so, you could use the amp section to drive a seperate speaker. you could save some $$$ this way and put those towards a very sensitive (high spl) cabinet.
If you could get something rated at 103 spl you'd be well equipped and it would really make the most of those 120 watts.

this becomes academic though if you can't remove the amplifier section.
 
#10
jtlownds said:
I would suspect that your pickup is not putting out a strong enough signal.
Click to expand...

Which goes back to my original post of jacking up the input gain (first knob on the left). As I understand it, mostly from the manual, this will get your input signal as strong as possible so that the preamp can get the strongest signal to eq and the power amp (master volume) can get the strongest signal to amplify.

As you can see I have NO technical knowledge. I just know what has worked for me with the WM12 over the past 7 years or so.
 
#11
One more suggestion (all of the above are good too).

Maybe you could try to borrow another amp and see how it compares. Make sure like jt said that the front end of your signal path is not the problem. Could be the fit of the pickup in the bridge wing needs some tweaking. Or even a wimpy cord, I dunno. It would be cheaper than a new amp.
_____________________________________

Re: watts - I have a 200 watt Wizzy combo that can go plenty loud for most of my gigging needs. With the RS II p/u, I don't think I have ever turned the master volume past 5 (out of 10). So "not enough power" may or may not be the root problem. Of course the speaker (SPL) is very efficient, YMMV, etc., etc. I am not trying to overpower anybody however. And sometimes I do feel as if they are overwhelming my sound. I am just trying to sit well in the mix, w/ a pleasing tone, and be supportive.
_____________________________________

Competing for that crucial mid-range sonic territory so you and others can hear you sufficiently is tough sometimes when you are going up against cymbals, saxes, and elec. guitars, plus crowd noise, clinking glasses, et al. Maybe that's where you are losing the battle.
 
#12
Thank you all for replying. Awesome!

Fingers... I'm going to try the gain vs master option first. see where that gets me. If that doesn't work I'll try an extra speaker. Maybe a 10".

DRURB... I read your watts vs spl post and it extremely interesting and opened up something that was stored in my memory bank but never thought of applying towards this situation. Thanks!

Jtlownds... I have messed around with the positioning of the pick up in the wing and indeed it is very sensitive to that. I think I have found the sweet spot though. Maybe some more messing around once I have tried Fingers idea.


RevJPBass... If you can wing that with a 17 piece band, I should be able to do it with the outfit I am playing with.

Thomas Stone... Maybe the Superflexibles will help. I do like the Dominants thought. It's the sound I heard in my head when I first wanted to pick the upright.

I am not in the biz of being loud and competing with my band mates, I just need/want to hear myself. The two other guys in the band are loud but not metal loud. I used to play in a pro band (sounded like Black Sabbath) and the guitarist used to always joke about his sound not being right "it is the shi**y carpententer that blames his tools". Yes, my technique isn't the greatest but I am working on it daily and it is improving so I'm sure that has something to do with it as well. Live and learn. Again thank you all for replying and sharing your wisdom with this newbie.
 
#13
IN MY EXPERIENCE I HAVE ALMOST ALWAYS USED AN AMP THAT HAD AT LEAST HALF AGAIN AS MANY WATTS AS THE GUITAR PLAYER. ANOTHER "TRICK" WE USED TO USE WAS WHEN SOMEONE GOT OVERLY LOUD. WAS TO GIVE EACH OTHER THE LOOK AND START PLAYING MARY HAD A LITTLE LAMB UNTIL THE SONG ENDS. A LITTLE EMBARASSMENT GOES A LONG WAY.
 
#14
wingnut said:
IN MY EXPERIENCE I HAVE ALMOST ALWAYS USED AN AMP THAT HAD AT LEAST HALF AGAIN AS MANY WATTS AS THE GUITAR PLAYER.
Click to expand...

All together now: "Think SPL, not watts." :) Seriously, it's not the electrical power that goes in that counts, it's the acoustic power that comes out.
 
#18
charmicarmicat said:
Correct me if I am wrong but amp watts should match (or get close to) speaker spl for best results?
100 watt amp should be paired with a 90 and upwards spl speaker?
Click to expand...

No, those are not the two specifications to be matched at all. Here's the deal. For the purposes of this discussion, there are two speaker specifications with which you are concerned. The first is efficiency (not really sensitivity), the second is the maximum power handling capability of the speaker.

In terms of efficiency, you'd like to know what will be the sound pressure level produced for a given amount of input power. The standard way to specify this is to measure the sound pressure level 1 meter from the speaker when it is driven with a voltage such that it dissipates one watt. In non-technical terms, a "1-watt input."

The EA Wizzy, for example, when driven with 1 watt will yield 103 dB SPL. Within the normal operating limits of the speaker, for every decibel increase in the input power, there will be a matching decibel increase in the output (acoustic) power.

The maximum power handling capability of the Wizzy is 200 watts. That is 23 dB above 1 watt [10*LOG(200/1)]. Add that 23 to the 113 dB SPL you get at 1 watt and you see that when driven at its maximum power, the Wizzy will achieve 126 dB SPL (103 + 23).

What you need to "match" in terms of amps and speakers is the power output of the amp with the power handling capabilities of the speaker. There are two extremes about which you need to worry. If you have a system with a tweeter, the biggest danger is too little amplifier power! When you overdrive an amplifier so that it "clips" the waveform, you introduce massive amounts of
high-frequency energy that will burn a tweeter in no time. The other extreme is too much power such that you drive the poor woofer cone too far and damage it. Go further and you can produce smoke. In normal use, a woofer will often give you some warning that you are abusing it.

So, given the example above, you just wouldn't gain anything by driving the Wizzy with an amp whose nominal power rating is beyond 200 watts. If all you wanted to do was run the Wizzy, a 200-watt amp would be a fine choice. There could be some other speaker cabinet out there with a maximum power handling rating of 200 watts. It could, theoretically, be more or less efficient than the Wizzy. In either case, if all you wanted to do was drive that speaker to its full capacity, you would choose a 200 watt amp again.

Suppose, just for the sake of argument, that there is another cabinet with a 200-watt handling capacity but which puts out, say, 109 dB SPL @ 1 watt @ 1 meter (that would be some feat if it were not HUGE). That cabinet would require only 50 watts to achieve the same sound pressure level that the Wizzy does with 200 watts! You might decide, "Hey, that's plenty" and buy a 50-watt amp. My point here is that the watts are in no way matched to the SPL.

Thus my montra, "Think SPL, not watts."
 
#19
That's why I'm still wating for EA to build the Neo 2x8 because their Ceramic version had so much promise with it's high SPL. Transmission line cabinets are very musical to my ears, and Transmission Line cabinets with high SPL's are ideal IMHO

Ric
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back